Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[sawdust]

More questions are part of the game sir or madame.
Not to mention the endless blind alleys and rabbit trails.

This is true and while there are some who do it deliberately and willfully, there are others who do it out of ignorance. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume they simply haven't thought about things deep enough. This is why we need each other, iron sharpens iron.

 

[fredoheaven]

Jesus said " I am the way, the truth and the life..."
Calvinism says" Tulip is the way, the truth and the life
My observation thus far about Calvinism
1. At the begginning, man is corrupt, a dead corpse, man is incapable of comphending, man have nothing to merit salvation, etc but...
2. At the ending, man is to persist, continue, process etc.

The irony is when a claim that if you are not a Calvinian, you are treated as Armininian when it seems Calvinism and Arminianism ended the same thing to perseverse and work for it.

 

[Cameron143]

Sorry Cameron but that is even worse. What does that even mean?

These are the aspects of man that were corrupted in the fall.

 

[Genez]

And anything not of faith is sin. All are sinners. Well, those who believe what Jesus said believe that..

When we are trained by right doctrine we are to learn how to walk in the Spirit as to not live like a sinner.
The caveat?
Arrogance keeps us from experiencing that freedom.

 

[sawdust]

These are the aspects of man that were corrupted in the fall.

They are aspects of the soul, yes? Are you saying God creates corrupted souls? Or, our birth somehow corrupts our soul? (ie. God imputes a perfect soul at conception but being born somehow corrupts it). Or are you saying something entirely different?

 

[Genez]

The total part of total depravity simply means entire. That is, in the fall, every aspect of man was corrupted, and not that every facet of man was utterly corrupted.

Then, if that were accurate?
Then there would be nothing that God could save.

Its only the soul He saves.
Not our flesh.
It is the fallen nature of the flesh that corrupts our soul's actions, like too much alcohol corrupts the performance of our body.
Sober up that body?
And you are safe to drive.

Likewise...
Apply the power of grace to our person?
We are safe to walk in righteousness.

The soul is dependent upon what rules over it.
By default, when the soul free of the fallen flesh? It is not automatically depraved.
Nor, is the soul righteous without the right rulership of the Spirit.

We must differentiate between the condemned flesh that forces our souls to sin.
And, our same souls?
That when under the grace of the Spirit?
Will not sin.

And, if we should slip up and sin?
Instant cleansing, with 1 John 1:9.

The Soul's volition determines what campground it will set up it's tent in.

 

[sawdust]

And you are safe to drive.

You've never seen me on the road.

 

[Cameron143]

They are aspects of the soul, yes? Are you saying God creates corrupted souls? Or, our birth somehow corrupts our soul? (ie. God imputes a perfect soul at conception but being born somehow corrupts it). Or are you saying something entirely different?

I'm talking about the immaterial part of man. People describe this variously. The corruption took place in Adam as a result of sin. Since we are all Adam, we inherit it from him.

 

[Cameron143]

Then, if that were accurate?
Then there would be nothing that God could save.

Its only the soul He saves.
Not our flesh.
It is the fallen nature of the flesh that corrupts our soul's actions, like too much alcohol corrupts the performance of our body.
Sober up that body?
And you are safe to drive.

Likewise...
Apply the power of grace to our person?
We are safe to walk in righteousness.

The soul is dependent upon what rules over it.
By default, when the soul free of the fallen flesh? It is not automatically depraved.
Nor, is the soul righteous without the right rulership of the Spirit.

We must differentiate between the condemned flesh that forces our souls to sin.
And, our same souls?
That when under the grace of the Spirit?
Will not sin.

And, if we should slip up and sin?
Instant cleansing, with 1 John 1:9.

The Soul's volition determines what campground it will set up it's tent in.

I haven't said anything about the flesh.

 

[Rufus]

No, they are not separated from God the same way we are, that was his point.

Yes, they are! God DROVE fallen angels out of heaven, just like He drove Adam out of the Garden. And on Judgment Day, God will DRIVE the angels out from His presence into the Lake of Fire for all eternity, just as he will drive all wicked humanity into the same place. Both of these fallen entities are DEAD to God; for both are separated from His Life. This is what spiritual DEATH means -- eternal separation from the one and only Source of Life. Physical death is separation of body from soul.

P.S. One more thing: Both fallen man and fallen angels are ENEMIES of God! So there's that, as well.

 

[Magenta]

When we are trained by right doctrine we are to learn how to walk in the Spirit as to not live like a sinner.
The caveat?
Arrogance keeps us from experiencing that freedom.

I see a lot of arrogance in those swinging their credentials around. While they brag about where they studied and how
long they studied and under whom they studied, they are yet so daft they do not even know what it is they are teaching.
And they will say they prefer to call a spade a spade, but they don't like the unvarnished truth being spoken to them.

 

[Rufus]

What the super-determinists call "truths" of Romans 9 truths are definitely nothing of the sort.

Then how much worse are your lies which you label as truths?

 

[Rufus]

Agreed. The talk of choosing Esau and Jacob was in relation to God choosing who He would choose to form His very own nation, it had nothing to do with individual salvation or even salvation in general for that matter.

In your pipe dreams. That's not the context of Romans 9. And what you conveniently miss is that the rejection of Ishmael and Esau means they (as individuals) were excluded from the Abrahamic Covenant. They were never in a covenant relationship with God.

 

[Rufus]

Genez said:


Then, if that were accurate?
Then there would be nothing that God could save.

Its only the soul He saves.
Not our flesh.

So, to add to you list of heresies you don't believe in the Resurrection of the Dead on the Last Day. You're a real gem.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You side with those who claim 1 Cor 2:14 does not even mean what it says. They also say it does not include the gospel, whereas that again contradicts Scripture (1 cor 1:18).

I say 1 Cor 2:14 does not include the gospel and I do not contradict what is written in 1 Cor 1:18 ...

1 Corinthians 1:

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

These verses do not state that those who are perishing cannot understand the message of the cross ... they do understand ... and they consider the message of the cross foolish. iow, they suppress the truth in unrighteousness due to holding man's wisdom (the wisdom of words – 1 Cor 1:17 or the wisdom of the wise – 1 Cor 1:19) above the wisdom of God.


1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

There is no indication in 1 Cor 1:18 that those who are perishing cannot know the gospel.

However, 1 Cor 2:14 states the deeper things of God referred to in 1 Cor 2:6-16 cannot be known by the natural man ... why? Because the natural man spoken of in 1 Cor 2:14 consists of:

1) those who are not born again ... they have not taken that first step which would allow them to know spiritual matters which go beyond the scope of the gospel; or

2) those who are born again but are immature in their walk with the Lord ... either because they are newly born again and need to feed on the milk of the word or they are carnal believers who follow men as opposed to maturing in the things of God.

And if you believe I am incorrect in what I have stated, please let me know directly ... not through some indirect statement wherein you lay out indictments against others without engaging with them directly in an effort to reason together.

This is an online forum and sometimes it takes time and effort to get a point across. If we were sitting face to face discussing Scripture over a cup of coffee, it would not be as difficult. We may or may not come to agreement, but it would be much less difficult to get the point across, and I believe there would not be as much venomous vitriol which occurs due to the anonymity afforded in an online forum.

thanks in advance for your consideration.
.

 

[Rufus]

Then, if that were accurate?
Then there would be nothing that God could save.

Its only the soul He saves.
Not our flesh.
It is the fallen nature of the flesh that corrupts our soul's actions, like too much alcohol corrupts the performance of our body.
Sober up that body?
And you are safe to drive.

Likewise...
Apply the power of grace to our person?
We are safe to walk in righteousness.

The soul is dependent upon what rules over it.
By default, when the soul free of the fallen flesh? It is not automatically depraved.
Nor, is the soul righteous without the right rulership of the Spirit.

We must differentiate between the condemned flesh that forces our souls to sin.
And, our same souls?
That when under the grace of the Spirit?
Will not sin.

And, if we should slip up and sin?
Instant cleansing, with 1 John 1:9.

The Soul's volition determines what campground it will set up it's tent in.

So man has two wills: A will of the "flesh" and a will of the soul? That kinda explains all the doublespeak that abounds with FWers around here.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Satan still went to meetings with the angels in Job. He walked right in. God spoke to him. So yeah until michael puts the boots to him in revaluations he still has access to heaven.

right ... the accuser of the brethren is active ... thank God for our Advocate ...
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I helped a couple of Chaplains in different holding systems and you would be shocked at the request for Bibles. One visit I helped with Water Baptism even though it was just using bottled water and pouring it over their heads.

sometimes prison is the only place some will actually sit and listen to the Word of God ... out in the world, there are too many distractions ... hopefully when released they'll stay involved in the church and away from the activities that put them behind bars in the first place. I thank God for prison ministries.
.

 

[Rufus]

I say 1 Cor 2:14 does not include the gospel and I do not contradict what is written in 1 Cor 1:18 ...

1 Corinthians 1:

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

These verses do not state that those who are perishing cannot understand the message of the cross ... they do understand ... and they consider the message of the cross foolish. iow, they suppress the truth in unrighteousness due to holding man's wisdom (the wisdom of words – 1 Cor 1:17 or the wisdom of the wise – 1 Cor 1:19) above the wisdom of God.


1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

There is no indication in 1 Cor 1:18 that those who are perishing cannot know the gospel.

However, 1 Cor 2:14 states the deeper things of God referred to in 1 Cor 2:6-16 cannot be known by the natural man ... why? Because the natural man spoken of in 1 Cor 2:14 consists of:

1) those who are not born again ... they have not taken that first step which would allow them to know spiritual matters which go beyond the scope of the gospel; or

2) those who are born again but are immature in their walk with the Lord ... either because they are newly born again and need to feed on the milk of the word or they are carnal believers who follow men as opposed to maturing in the things of God.

And if you believe I am incorrect in what I have stated, please let me know directly ... not through some indirect statement wherein you lay out indictments against others without engaging with them directly in an effort to reason together.

This is an online forum and sometimes it takes time and effort to get a point across. If we were sitting face to face discussing Scripture over a cup of coffee, it would not be as difficult. We may or may not come to agreement, but it would be much less difficult to get the point across, and I believe there would not be as much venomous vitriol which occurs due to the anonymity afforded in an online forum.

thanks in advance for your consideration.
.

Read the Wisdom Books in the OT someday. Fools (the wicked) have no true spiritual understanding, for there is no fear of God before their eyes. Besides, such are BLIND for both are Darkness itself, so they cannot see (understand, comprehend) the truth.

 

[Rufus]

Jackson129 said:


Satan still went to meetings with the angels in Job. He walked right in. God spoke to him. So yeah until michael puts the boots to him in revaluations he still has access to heaven.

That was BEFORE the first advent of Christ. But since the Cross they no longer have any judicial reason to accuse the elect.