Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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Roughsoul1991 said:
How else does one come to belief? You're not born a believer from the womb. 🙂 Everyone got there before the indwelling of the Spirit. Do you have any examples of the indwelling coming before belief?
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Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. What or Who is the source of faith?
 
sawdust said:
This is just deceitful. You know what she was referring to. Stop playing games.
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Too bad you naive people can't see the spiritual principle in the analogy that I drew between God and his free moral agents who just by sheet "coincidence" are made in his image. In both cases neither the Potter or the pots he has made have libertarian-style wills. In both cases the choices they make are governed by their nature, which is precisely why God cannot sin and why man cannot not sin. In both cases, they have a nature. In both cases, neither of them can change their own nature. And in both cases, they both have hearts (the control/command center of personhood, personality).

Would you care for more parallels, O naive one?
 
Rufus said:
They were "completely depraved", in the quantitative sense, i.e. in all four faculties of their heart. The only reason is that man is not "completely depraved" in the qualitative sense is because God, through both natural and supernatural means, restrains evil in this world. Plus we should not forget that "leaven" is often used as a metaphor for sin. It only takes a little leaven to leaven the whole lump (1Cor 5:6).
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Agree. Keyword: were completely depraved past tense.

Agree. God responded with supernatural and natural means.

If God had not responded, we would have been no different than how God judges the wildlife. It would have simply been our nature but God wanted more than just another animal, He wanted children made in His image. And so we became thinking beings with a higher conscience.
 
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Roughsoul1991 said:
How else does one come to belief? You're not born a believer from the womb. 🙂 Everyone got there before the indwelling of the Spirit. Do you have any examples of the indwelling coming before belief?
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Every single believer turns to God by the indwelling. There is no other way of obtaining a new heart.
In some cases it may take a while for belief, faith and repentance to follow, [a rather slow process]. In other cases it is an instant action of all things coming together at the same time. However, you will not come to Christ without the work of the HS.
 
Cameron143 said:
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. What or Who is the source of faith?
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Pistis and pisteuo
Faith and believe

Pistis is God gifting faith
Pisteuo is our response to the Holy Spirit drawing.

I suppose you can think of God as the cowboy leading the horse to the water but ultimately it is still on the horse to drink.
 
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BillyBob said:
Every single believer turns to God by the indwelling. There is no other way of obtaining a new heart.
In some cases it may take a while for belief, faith and repentance to follow, [a rather slow process]. In other cases it is an instant action of all things coming together at the same time. However, you will not come to Christ without the work of the HS.
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The Spirit does indeed draw all people unto God.

But you will not find any example of the indwelling coming before belief. It was always belief and then the Spirit came after.

Unless you have a different example?
 
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Roughsoul1991 said:
Pistis and pisteuo
Faith and believe

Pistis is God gifting faith
Pisteuo is our response to the Holy Spirit drawing.

I suppose you can think of God as the cowboy leading the horse to the water but ultimately it is still on the horse to drink.
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Our reaching out or responding is evidence of faith. We are simply exercising the faith we possess already. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe.
 
Cameron143 said:
That is, in the fall, every aspect of man was corrupted, and not that every facet of man was utterly corrupted.
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What do you mean by "aspect"? What do you mean by "facet"? What do these terms even mean when speaking of man as spirit, soul and body? Where does the heart fit in here? Is it part of our facet or aspect? Where does the sin nature lie, within aspect or facet?

Do you get that such a description as you have supplied is not a description at all? It leads to more questions than understanding. :confused:
 
Roughsoul1991 said:
Pistis and pisteuo
Faith and believe

Pistis is God gifting faith
Pisteuo is our response to the Holy Spirit drawing.

I suppose you can think of God as the cowboy leading the horse to the water but ultimately it is still on the horse to drink.
Click to expand...

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:32-33‬ ‭
 
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Rufus said:
Too bad you naive people can't see the spiritual principle in the analogy that I drew between God and his free moral agents who just by sheet "coincidence" are made in his image. In both cases neither the Potter or the pots he has made have libertarian-style wills. In both cases the choices they make are governed by their nature, which is precisely why God cannot sin and why man cannot not sin. In both cases, they have a nature. In both cases, neither of them can change their own nature. And in both cases, they both have hearts (the control/command center of personhood, personality).

Would you care for more parallels, O naive one?
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Too bad you can't be more Christ like and have compassion on the crowds instead of this constant contempt you throw around.

The problem is you begin with so many errors that trying to correct you is like walking through a mine field. You confuse personality with character. You think man is born with an evil heart which, effectively has God creating evil people. You understand grace is powerful enough to raise a man from the dead but you refuse to concede it is powerful enough to do a lesser work by subduing the sin nature for a moment so his volition is not bound to sin and can reveal what is truly in a man's heart.

All will be revealed on the Day. I pray yours is a good one but I won't hold my breath. :)

grace and peace.
 
sawdust said:
This is true because God pours out His grace before man shows any inclination toward Him but if that grace did not exist, we all would end up in the lake of fire never knowing why any of us were there. God has never forsaken us, only one man has known the full weight of what it means to be forsaken while He carried our sin in His body.

John 1:12 makes the order of things very clear. The Light is revealed, we take hold by believing on His name, the power to be born again is given.

John 1:12
But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God;
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exactly they aren’t already gods children they receive power to become the children of God because they accept the only begotten son , who the gospel preaches to us

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and 1 preach the gospel to every creature.

2 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

3 but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it isn’t “ preach the gospel and those who are already saved and chosen Will believe but those who are already damned won’t believe “

that’s backwards it’s saying preach the gospel to everyone and whoever believes …shall be saved as a result

abut whoever doesn’t believe the gospel as a result shall then be damned. The concept is backwards when we make it backwards
 
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sawdust said:
What do you mean by "aspect"? What do you mean by "facet"? What do these terms even mean when speaking of man as spirit, soul and body? Where does the heart fit in here? Is it part of our facet or aspect? Where does the sin nature lie, within aspect or facet?

Do you get that such a description as you have supplied is not a description at all? It leads to more questions than understanding. :confused:
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Mind, heart, and will.
 
LifelongLearner said:
Many have probably realised i don't think we can exercise free will, even think it's impossible for us to. Won't explain why i think it's an impossiblility for us yet, think it's useful for some to express why they think it exists first.

I have no doubt we have and can make choices throughout life, however, think our options are far more restricted than most realise. What do you think?
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No free will?

What forced you to post that?
 
Rufus said:
the Potter or the pots
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The "pots" are NATIONS. Not individuals.
This correct interpretation has already been posted many many times, but you CHOOSE to reject it.

Super-determinists fail on Romans 9 in the most embarrassingly epic fashion conceivable.
I mean zero understanding, total fail. And yet, it is one of the foundation stones of their doctrine.
 
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sawdust said:
What do you mean by "aspect"? What do you mean by "facet"? What do these terms even mean when speaking of man as spirit, soul and body? Where does the heart fit in here? Is it part of our facet or aspect? Where does the sin nature lie, within aspect or facet?

Do you get that such a description as you have supplied is not a description at all? It leads to more questions than understanding. :confused:
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More questions are part of the game sir or madame.
Not to mention the endless blind alleys and rabbit trails.
 
cv5 said:
The "pots" are NATIONS. Not individuals.
This correct interpretation has already been posted many many times, but you CHOOSE to reject it.

Super-determinists fail on Romans 9 in the most embarrassingly epic fashion conceivable.
I mean zero understanding, total fail. And yet, it is one of the foundation stones of their doctrine.
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Agreed. The talk of choosing Esau and Jacob was in relation to God choosing who He would choose to form His very own nation, it had nothing to do with individual salvation or even salvation in general for that matter.
 
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