Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

So sinners don't have to repent of their sin? Repentance isn't part of the "complete Gospel"?

Jesus began His earthly ministry following His baptism with, “The time is fulfilled,” He said, “and the kingdom of God
is near. Repent and believe in the gospel!” He said, "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

Repentance is actually tied to believing. Saying it is not part of the gospel message is foolishness.

Repentance signifies a profound turning away from sin and a turning towards God. It's more than just feeling
sorry; it's a complete change of mind, heart, and behavior, involving a conscious decision to abandon sinful
ways and embrace a new life aligned with God's will. The Hebrew word "shuv" and the Greek word "metanoia"
both convey this idea of turning back and a transformative change of mind, respectively.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Jam 2:19

written to make believers.. not true believers who had real saving faith

 

[Roughsoul1991]

The structure of depravity how I see the scriptures.

1. Total depravity

Romans 3:10-17
New International Version
10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one; 11there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.

2. God's Desire

1 Timothy 2:4 ESV
God desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

3. God's Response

OT method was through direct contact, temporary Spirit empowerment, prophets, covenants, miracles, etc.

John 6:44 ESV
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 12:32 ESV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

4. Depraved

God moved first to draw people towards faith. Now only morally depraved God wants go the whole nine yards and bring them home.

2 Peter 3:9 ESV
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

5. God's Next Response: Gifting of faith

Pistis: a gifting that brings people closer to the next stage of belief.

Ephesians 2:8 ESV
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

6. Believe

Pisteuo: believe (a response to the Holy Spirit drawing)

Now they must believe that he exists.

Hebrews 11:6 ESV
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

7. Repent

Belief stirs up Godly grief that produces repentance.

2 Corinthians 7:10 ESV
For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.

8. Accept Jesus as Lord

Romans 10:9-10 ESV
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

God
Yes
Yes
God

Great!

Your quote,

By works of the law no flesh is justified.

By nature are not willing to do the will of God. By nature, a lion eats meat. Is the lion acting righteously? Willing to do something involves volition. Doing things by nature does not.

So if God is the moral law giver and you see unbelievers making decisions that fall in line with morality then how is this possible if they were completely depraved?

 

[cv5]

written to make believers.. not true believers who had real saving faith

Right. Sayers and not doers....

[Jas 2:18 KJV]
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

[Jas 2:19 KJV]
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

[Jas 2:20 KJV]
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

[Jas 2:21 KJV]
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

[Jas 2:22 KJV]
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

 

[Magenta]

I'd want to know do they hold a Biblical worldview. Many unsaved people believe in God but not Jesus as their Lord.

How do you define believing in God? How can you believe in Someone you don't know? I would
be more inclined to say they know God exists but probably have zero desire to be proselytized.
If they are like those at Mars Hill, worshipping an unknown God, they may be ready to have the
gospel preached to them. God circumcises ears as well as hearts. Otherwise it is just foolishness
and they will not be able to comprehend.

 

[Cameron143]

Great!

Your quote,



So if God is the moral law giver and you see unbelievers making decisions that fall in line with morality then how is this possible if they were completely depraved?

I disagree with your definition of depravity. Also, doing something by nature is not volition. And without faith it is impossible to please God. Doing what is right can be done by anyone. Volitionally willing to do as God wills can only be done by faith. One who exercises faith has the Spirit.

 

[lrs68]

This is what fascinated me the most is learning that the majority of African Americans that are behind bars were raised in the Baptist Church and learned about the Reformed Doctrine.

I will ask if I see any of them again are you here because God chose predestined by foreknowledge you to be here since God ordained and it's God's Sovereignty that you who believes in Him is here because many Reformers claim that's how and why things happen to everyone?

Many come from homes where they were raised in the Church and always believed in God. Most African Americans were Baptist Reformed Believers.

 

[Magenta]

And without faith it is impossible to please God.

And anything not of faith is sin. All are sinners. Well, those who believe what Jesus said believe that.

We have a few here who do not believe what Jesus said. They don't believe a number of things Jesus said.

 

[cv5]

I am quite sure you know that the doctrine of "total inability" is in reference to humans not God.

Yes, @Rufus knows that. But he chose to take his shot anyway.

 

[Cameron143]

And anything not of faith is sin. All are sinners. Well, those who believe what Jesus said believe that.

We have a few here who do not believe what Jesus said. They don't believe a number of things Jesus said.

Excellent follow up.

 

[cv5]

So what does Prov 12:1 have to do with the price of rice today? Those whose hearts are Darkness itself do not love discipline or knowledge. In fact, they hate such things.

You and @Magenta sound awfully obsessed with "hearts of darkness" "total depravity" "spiritually dead" "incurable wickedness".

Luke 6:45
an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

Where there is smoke there is fire IMO.

 

[cv5]

And anything not of faith is sin. All are sinners. Well, those who believe what Jesus said believe that.

We have a few here who do not believe what Jesus said. They don't believe a number of things Jesus said.

Well, contrary to your doctrine, I believe that Jesus God is "the good One". As such He is unwilling to do those things that you accuse Him of doing.

Not to mention those things that He is willing to do such as His unfailing mercy, patience, loving kindness, forgiving nature.

And it occurs to me that Scripture is adamant about proving you wrong, unfailingly so.

 

[fredoheaven]

I agree, but we must also realize the simple complete Gospel is rarely preached, instead we hear a lot of false Gospels like
"turn from sin."

That is not the Gospel.

Yes, false, or another gospel is to include that man is to persevere in completing the process of salvation. In this way, man becomes a savior, and Jesus' death on the cross, his burial, and resurrection is not good news at all.
Tetelestai!

 

[Magenta]

Excellent follow up.

Thank you bro ... I'm just out having coffee... and a cookie LOL

 

[Jackson129]

Christ didn't die for the fallen angels, yet they're going to stand before Christ and be judged. And all unrighteous sinners will have no excuse because they all know they are guilty. The works of the law written intuitively on their hearts and their own consciences will bear witness to this fact (Rom 2).

What you stated above clearly implies that God wouldn't be able to judge any human being for their personal sins if he hadn't "given them a way out". What if God had passed over the entire human race the way he did with the fallen angels, providing no salvific remedy whatsoever? God's hands would be judicially be tied in terms of judgment for what reason specifically?

I think Paul stated it is us who judge the angels. Don't you know it is us who will judge the angles. 1 Corinthians 6-3

"And if God passed over the entire human race as he did with the fallen angels." The entire angel race didnt fall only those who choose to rebel. They made thier choice just like those who choose not to rebel.

 

[Magenta]

Yes, false,

Do you believe that Jesus started His earthly ministry (following his baptism by John) by saying, repent and believe? And if you do believe it, because it is what Scripture attests after all, then how is it not part of the gospel message?

 

[BillyBob]

Jacob and Esau have nothing to do with the two individuals, Esau the man never served Jacob.

Obad 1:18
The house of Jacob shall be a fire, And the house of Joseph a flame; But the house of Esau shall be stubble; They shall kindle them and devour them, And no survivor shall remain of the house of Esau,” For the Lord has spoken.
A very sad statement concerning someone who was loved by God, [not hated]. And this was determined before the two were born!
But according to FW crowd, they each had the ability to please God!
But to me, it appears that Esau was appointed to demonstrate the power of God. He was a vessel made for destruction.

 

[Jackson129]

Fallen angels are spiritually dead because they are SEPARATED from God in the same way sinners are separated from Him! I believe the fallen angels were cast out/driven out of heaven away from God's presence -- just like Adam was cast out of the Garden away from His holy presence.

You clearly have been sucked into a great number of lies.

Satan still went to meetings with the angels in Job. He walked right in. God spoke to him. So yeah until michael puts the boots to him in revaluations he still has access to heaven.

 

[Hakawaka]

Obad 1:18
The house of Jacob shall be a fire, And the house of Joseph a flame; But the house of Esau shall be stubble; They shall kindle them and devour them, And no survivor shall remain of the house of Esau,” For the Lord has spoken.
A very sad statement concerning someone who was loved by God, [not hated]. And this was determined before the two were born!
But according to FW crowd, they each had the ability to please God!
But to me, it appears that Esau was appointed to demonstrate the power of God. He was a vessel made for destruction.

Atleast you are consistent. Could this judgment have anything to do over how the edomites treated israelites?

Why would God just arbitrarely make vessels for destruction, no one is impressed by that.