Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Hakawaka]

So...you seem to be saying that God is indebted to the sinner? He owes them a "way out" of THEIR sin? On what judicial basis does He owe them? Or what have sinners given to God that he needs to repay them (Rom 11:35)!?

He is not indebted to the sinner but He LOVED the world enough to give everyone a way out. Hell was not made for people it was made for the devil and his angels, thats what the bible teaches.
Of course God can do what He wants.

Is God the cause of their sin? Or....

In calvinism, yes. He predestined all of their sins to occur. But dont worry ive read the confession double speak already. "God caused it but didnt cause it, but He did cause it through secondary means so technically the sin isnt on Him"

Very slippery.

 

[studier]

Very slippery.

Yes indeed.

 

[Hakawaka]

Seems as though you are the one who needs to re-think his position!
Every time a FW'er hears the word all or world, they assume that God is speaking of the entire human race, [every single person on the planet]. Of coarse, we know that this is untrue, otherwise you would never see a verse such as Romans 9:13 - As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
God does not share his love, mercy and grace equally among all men, even though you seem to believe that this is unfair. He has a [chosen people], [a remnant], [His elect], that He calls His own.

I would see a verse like that. Cause I can actually look up the references that Paul quotes. Thats a good way to study the Bible, when the old testament is quoted, look up the verses.

Jacob and Esau have nothing to do with the two individuals, Esau the man never served Jacob.

It is about two nations:

Genesis 25:23 states: "And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger"

Jacob = Israel, as Israel is often called Jacob according to the individual man whose named was changed to Israel
Esau = Edomites.

 

[sawdust]

If righteousness, the will to do God's will, is found before the indwelling of the Spirit, why do we need Christ's imputed righteousness? Wouldn't that mean we are perfectly capable of righteousness on our own?

Noah's righteousness came the same as ours, faith in the Lord God. He didn't get Christ like we do though. You might say we got the whole kit and kaboodle.

 

[sawdust]

Even fallen angels are not spiritually dead.
They can still perceive spiritual things!

Looks like when they fell God had them experience physical death.
No longer able to materialize in the material world.
Just the reversal of mankind.

I'm looking forward to the eternal state. It will be interesting to see salvation from the perspective of the elect angels. <also need curious emoji>

 

[studier]

I'm looking forward to the eternal state. It will be interesting to see salvation from the perspective of the elect angels. <also need curious emoji>

I'm looking forward to the eternal state, so we don't argue about theology anymore.

 

[Cameron143]

Nope. An unbeliever can still do a righteous act in not murdering out of anger but that hardly save them from their debt of sin. Only Christ can do that. Good question though.

Merely not committing murder is not a righteous act, in and of itself. Otherwise, nearly everyone in the world acted righteously yesterday, and will again today. Their motivation was not to will to do the will of God. They may be blameless before God in this regard, but they are not righteous.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I would see a verse like that. Cause I can actually look up the references that Paul quotes. Thats a good way to study the Bible, when the old testament is quoted, look up the verses.

yes ... good, sound advice.
.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Merely not committing murder is not a righteous act, in and of itself. Otherwise, nearly everyone in the world acted righteously yesterday, and will again today. Their motivation was not to will to do the will of God. They may be blameless before God in this regard, but they are not righteous.

Romans 2:14-16
English Standard Version
14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Question 1. By adhering to God's morality does that make the act righteous or unrighteous?

Question 2. Does righteous acts save you? Did Noah's righteousness salvationally save him?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I went back to the post submitted by Roughsoul1991 from which Cameron143 posed the question about righteousness being found before the indwelling of the Spirit ...

My point is not the difference in OT and NT ways to salvation but to provide proof that totally depravity is false in the sense that righteousness (will to do God's will) was still found before the indwelling.

If righteousness, the will to do God's will, is found before the indwelling of the Spirit, why do we need Christ's imputed righteousness? Wouldn't that mean we are perfectly capable of righteousness on our own?

I believe Roughshoul1991 was referring to the indwelling of the Spirit we now have under NC (after Pentecost) as opposed to what was available under OC (before the Lord Jesus Christ came) ... please correct me if I misunderstood your point.

I believe Cameron143 was referring to the actual indwelling of the Spirit within the believer ... please correct me if I misunderstood ...


1 Peter 1:

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


vs 10 – the prophets of old searched diligently and prophesied of the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

vs 11 – the prophets of old saw the sufferings of Christ ... they saw the glory of Christ ... they did not see the age in which we are now living ... and, according to vs 12, the angels desire to look into ...
.

 

[HeIsHere]

I'm looking forward to the eternal state. It will be interesting to see salvation from the perspective of the elect angels. <also need curious emoji>

When it comes to soteriology there is no debate at all, God gives a clear account and the Gospel is quite simple.

Unfortunately, it only takes one false teacher in history to distort what is clear by his cunning rhetoric.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I went back to the post submitted by Roughsoul1991 from which Cameron143 posed the question about righteousness being found before the indwelling of the Spirit ...







I believe Roughshoul1991 was referring to the indwelling of the Spirit we now have under NC (after Pentecost) as opposed to what was available under OC (before the Lord Jesus Christ came) ... please correct me if I misunderstood your point.

I believe Cameron143 was referring to the actual indwelling of the Spirit within the believer ... please correct me if I misunderstood ...


1 Peter 1:

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


vs 10 – the prophets of old searched diligently and prophesied of the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

vs 11 – the prophets of old saw the sufferings of Christ ... they saw the glory of Christ ... they did not see the age in which we are now living ... and, according to vs 12, the angels desire to look into ...
.

Yes correct on my end. The permanent indwelling came at Pentecost and the moment one believes.

 

[lrs68]

The scales are heavily in favor of the population of the current people on earth are ungodly, unrighteous, immoral, 100% natural man. Logistically, the true population is about 1.5 Billion people that believe in the God of Abraham and the rest [7 Billion] do not. And out of the total crimes committed yesterday it was a greater portion coming from those who are Saved compared to those who reject God (if you read statistics for jails\prisons\and documents for recently arrested [most select the question {YES} when asked if you believe in God]).

Now that's pretty alarming.

That means that natural man has used his FREE WILL to be compliant and obey the laws and governments including the typical moral laws against one another.

That also means those that believe in God choose to do something that goes against laws, governments, moral laws, and including God's Laws.

And here we're having a debate over who has free will and it literally turns out the ONE SIDE THAT CLAIMS GOD CHOOSES shows that natural man is better in general than Saved man who percentage wise commits more crimes against the person they're supposed to be loving and the establishments that Paul said they're supposed to be obeying.

It truly looks like the free will action of natural man is morally better than Saved man.

Obviously that doctrine cannot be factual or Believers wouldn't be leading in the SINFUL ACTS CATEGORY!

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

And I answered in the post you rudely refused to read.



I'm not playing any games.

If you meant before he was born spiritually, how hard would it have been for you to say "born again" instead of just saying "before he was born"?

There is only one way I am going to read the latter statement and that is meaning his physical birth.

And again, I will not repeat the answer that you so rudely refused to read in the first place.



There's a first time for everything.

Not sinless, imbued with the power of God to overcome.

Why you think you have to be saved in order to know the struggle, I don't get? Even criminals know they do wrong which is why they hide their crimes. The difference is, usually, they love unrighteousness. Paul could read the Law, he saw it was right and he loved righteousness. It's why he was so zealous for the Law. It was his love for doing what is right, being in conflict with the sin nature in his flesh that is anti-Spirit, that set up a constant and hopeless battle within him.

It's obvious we disagree. I don't get why you think we must be spiritually alive in order to recognise sin and righteousness when the Spirit is in the world convincing people of these very things.

John 16:8
And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

grace and peace

moving on..

 

[HeIsHere]

Fruits worthy of metanoia is in the Bible:

Matthew 3:8
Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.


Acts 26:20
First to those in Damascus and Jerusalem, then to everyone in the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I declared that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds worthy of their repentance.

Yes, and we read from the passages that "good fruit" should be the result of "metanoia."

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

This is a very poor example to use. Are you saying that if God tries to save someone and they resist that it may cause harm or death to God? Also, if God wants to save someone – can they resist and thwart His purpose?

I am just stating reality

if a person resists God

they will not get saved.

anymore than if a person resists a firefighter or rescue swimmer. they most likely will not be saved.

its not rocket science

 

[lrs68]

The scales are heavily in favor of the population of the current people on earth are ungodly, unrighteous, immoral, 100% natural man. Logistically, the true population is about 1.5 Billion people that believe in the God\Jesus of Abraham and the rest [7 Billion] do not. And out of the total crimes committed yesterday it was a greater portion coming from those who are Saved compared to those who reject God (if you read statistics for jails\prisons\and documents for recently arrested [most select the question {YES} when asked if you believe in God]).

Now that's pretty alarming.

That means that natural man has used his FREE WILL to be compliant and obey the laws and governments including the typical moral laws against one another.

That also means those that believe in God choose to do something that goes against laws, governments, moral laws, and including God's Laws.

And here we're having a debate over who has free will and it literally turns out the ONE SIDE THAT CLAIMS GOD CHOOSES shows that natural man is better in general than Saved man who percentage wise commits more crimes against the person they're supposed to be loving and the establishments that Paul said they're supposed to be obeying.

It truly looks like the free will action of natural man is morally better than Saved man.

Obviously that doctrine cannot be factual or Believers wouldn't be leading in the SINFUL ACTS CATEGORY!

 

[HeIsHere]

I am just stating reality

if a person resists God

they will not get saved.

anymore than if a person resists a firefighter or rescue swimmer. they most likely will not be saved.

its not rocket science

I agree, but we must also realize the simple complete Gospel is rarely preached, instead we hear a lot of false Gospels like
"turn from sin."

That is not the Gospel.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

The scales are heavily in favor of the population of the current people on earth are ungodly, unrighteous, immoral, 100% natural man. Logistically, the true population is about 1.5 Billion people that believe in the God of Abraham and the rest [7 Billion] do not. And out of the total crimes committed yesterday it was a greater portion coming from those who are Saved compared to those who reject God (if you read statistics for jails\prisons\and documents for recently arrested [most select the question {YES} when asked if you believe in God]).

Now that's pretty alarming.

That means that natural man has used his FREE WILL to be compliant and obey the laws and governments including the typical moral laws against one another.

That also means those that believe in God choose to do something that goes against laws, governments, moral laws, and including God's Laws.

And here we're having a debate over who has free will and it literally turns out the ONE SIDE THAT CLAIMS GOD CHOOSES shows that natural man is better in general than Saved man who percentage wise commits more crimes against the person they're supposed to be loving and the establishments that Paul said they're supposed to be obeying.

It truly looks like the free will action of natural man is morally better than Saved man.

Obviously that doctrine cannot be factual or Believers wouldn't be leading in the SINFUL ACTS CATEGORY!

Sounds like a flawed study.

 

[Jackson129]

The scales are heavily in favor of the population of the current people on earth are ungodly, unrighteous, immoral, 100% natural man. Logistically, the true population is about 1.5 Billion people that believe in the God\Jesus of Abraham and the rest [7 Billion] do not. And out of the total crimes committed yesterday it was a greater portion coming from those who are Saved compared to those who reject God (if you read statistics for jails\prisons\and documents for recently arrested [most select the question {YES} when asked if you believe in God]).

Now that's pretty alarming.

That means that natural man has used his FREE WILL to be compliant and obey the laws and governments including the typical moral laws against one another.

That also means those that believe in God choose to do something that goes against laws, governments, moral laws, and including God's Laws.

And here we're having a debate over who has free will and it literally turns out the ONE SIDE THAT CLAIMS GOD CHOOSES shows that natural man is better in general than Saved man who percentage wise commits more crimes against the person they're supposed to be loving and the establishments that Paul said they're supposed to be obeying.

It truly looks like the free will action of natural man is morally better than Saved man.

Obviously that doctrine cannot be factual or Believers wouldn't be leading in the SINFUL ACTS CATEGORY!

Believing there is a god is differnt than following him.