Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Kroogz]

In case I'm not as smart as you suspect, please explain it to me.

Cameron143 said:
He clearly understands because he rejects it.
Cameron143 said:If the word of God provokes the one to salvation, yet the other remains unchanged, what is the cause for the difference? One who focuses on God says He is the difference.

Why did one understand and reject the Gospel? According to you it was caused by God.

 

[Rufus]

"Their every inclination and thoughts of their hearts were wicked continually and they filled the earth with violence."

Like the Marxists in modern times.

So...you think modern day Marxism is more unrighteous than other secular or religious worldviews?

 

[Kroogz]

I think it is rejected because he does not understand it. The text says he is unable to comprehend.

They (the unregenerated) are darkness itself. Darkness cannot comprehend the light.

The gospel is hid, they are blinded, it is foolishness to them.

Exactly. The Gospel is powerless for unbelievers.The Gospel is only known to those who are already saved.....According to the calvies.

The Gospel is just a point of doctrine to those of us who are saved, it has no weight or credence for the unsaved....According to the calvies.

 

[Hakawaka]

Two individuals hear the same gospel. If the word of God provokes the one to salvation, yet the other remains unchanged, what is the cause for the difference?

This was asked of me as well, with the addition of are you smarter than someone else etc. I didnt know how to answer.

Now I do:

Here are just a few potential factors for some accepting or rejecting Christ, the gospel, and/or God’s word:

Rejection:

1) Refusal to be persuaded (Rom 10:21, Rom 2:8, Acts 19:9, Jer 9:5-6, II Thess 2:10-11, Rom 1:21-22) Some specifically refuse to be persuaded by the gospel. Some motives scripture gives for this are self-interest, obstinance, self-deception, and hardened hearts.

2) Contradicting; that is, those who argue against the gospel because they hope to thwart it. Those who are argumentative have started with their conclusion, don’t want to consider they might be wrong, and want to keep others from concluding differently. (Rom 10:21, Acts 13:25, Acts 19:8, II Cor 5:10) Pride and jealousy can be motives.

3) Neglect; not giving thoughts of salvation a high priority (Heb 2:1-4, Matt 22:5, Psa 14:1)

This can happen when someone doesn’t view spiritual matters as significant, whether due to apathy or deliberately dismissing the metaphysical.

4) Stubbornness (Isa 46:12, Ezek 2:4)

5) Self-righteousness (Matt 9:11-12, Jer 8:21-22, Lk 10:29, Rom 10:3)

6) Wanting more and more ‘signs’ as proof (I Cor 1:23, Matt 11:20-22, Jn 6:26-27)

7) Love of sin (Jn 3:19, Prov 2:13-4, Prov 8:36, I Jn 2:15-17. II Thess 2:10-12)

8) Fear of exposure of sin (Jn 3:20, Job 24:15-17)

9) Delusion (Isa 44:19-20, Rom 1:25, II Tim 3:13)

10) No opportunity (Rom 10:14)

11) Think they are a child of God but don’t truly follow God (John 10)

12) Don’t believe testimony of Moses or scripture (Jn 5:46-47, Lk 16:29-31)

13) Try to achieve salvation by works/merit (Col 2:22-23, Gal 5:4, Gal 3:11, Rom 3:10-28)

14) Seeks glory from man, not God (Jn 5:44)

Acceptance:

1) A noble and generous heart (Luke 8:15, Acts 17:11) This is not a ‘sinless’ heart, but one prepared for salvation and ready ready to embrace the word and keep it

2) Trusting as a child (Mk 10:14)

3) Waiting for salvation (Luke 2:25, Acts 13:26-48)

4) Believe testimony (Jn 10:42, II Thess 1:10)

5) Study scriptures (II Tim 3:15, Acts 17:11, Jn 20:31)

6) Humility (Matt 23:12, James 4:10, Psa 25:8-10)


source

 

[Kroogz]

This was asked of me as well, with the addition of are you smarter than someone else etc. I didnt know how to answer.

Now I do:

Here are just a few potential factors for some accepting or rejecting Christ, the gospel, and/or God’s word:

Rejection:

1) Refusal to be persuaded (Rom 10:21, Rom 2:8, Acts 19:9, Jer 9:5-6, II Thess 2:10-11, Rom 1:21-22) Some specifically refuse to be persuaded by the gospel. Some motives scripture gives for this are self-interest, obstinance, self-deception, and hardened hearts.

2) Contradicting; that is, those who argue against the gospel because they hope to thwart it. Those who are argumentative have started with their conclusion, don’t want to consider they might be wrong, and want to keep others from concluding differently. (Rom 10:21, Acts 13:25, Acts 19:8, II Cor 5:10) Pride and jealousy can be motives.

3) Neglect; not giving thoughts of salvation a high priority (Heb 2:1-4, Matt 22:5, Psa 14:1)

This can happen when someone doesn’t view spiritual matters as significant, whether due to apathy or deliberately dismissing the metaphysical.

4) Stubbornness (Isa 46:12, Ezek 2:4)

5) Self-righteousness (Matt 9:11-12, Jer 8:21-22, Lk 10:29, Rom 10:3)

6) Wanting more and more ‘signs’ as proof (I Cor 1:23, Matt 11:20-22, Jn 6:26-27)

7) Love of sin (Jn 3:19, Prov 2:13-4, Prov 8:36, I Jn 2:15-17. II Thess 2:10-12)

8) Fear of exposure of sin (Jn 3:20, Job 24:15-17)

9) Delusion (Isa 44:19-20, Rom 1:25, II Tim 3:13)

10) No opportunity (Rom 10:14)

11) Think they are a child of God but don’t truly follow God (John 10)

12) Don’t believe testimony of Moses or scripture (Jn 5:46-47, Lk 16:29-31)

13) Try to achieve salvation by works/merit (Col 2:22-23, Gal 5:4, Gal 3:11, Rom 3:10-28)

14) Seeks glory from man, not God (Jn 5:44)

Acceptance:

1) A noble and generous heart (Luke 8:15, Acts 17:11) This is not a ‘sinless’ heart, but one prepared for salvation and ready ready to embrace the word and keep it

2) Trusting as a child (Mk 10:14)

3) Waiting for salvation (Luke 2:25, Acts 13:26-48)

4) Believe testimony (Jn 10:42, II Thess 1:10)

5) Study scriptures (II Tim 3:15, Acts 17:11, Jn 20:31)

6) Humility (Matt 23:12, James 4:10, Psa 25:8-10)


source

Looks like a WHOLE BUNCH of God influencing mankind to either accept Him or reject Him. Not God determining who will accept or reject Him.

 

[cv5]

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Romans 4:3
Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness.

Otherwise God kidnapped Abraham and then brainwashed him. And then made him a marionette on His string.

 

[Rufus]

@sawdust Thanks for attempting to answer this continued craziness.

He's referring to discussion from nearly 2 months ago in another thread and trying as usual to say he didn't receive the answer [he wants]. His presupposition as usual is Calvinistic and that Jer13:23 confirms that men are Totally Depraved and cannot do anything about it. IOW who needs context.

As I previously explained in that discussion, the context and rhetoric of Jer13:23 is speaking of a covenant people who had learned evil and it is now deeply ingrained. So, the spots & skin color are metaphor for learned evil the covenant people cannot change at this point. Jer13:25 explains that the cause is forgetting God and trusting/hoping in lies. (learning evil in 13:23).

At the end of Jer13:27 is repentance inference and appeal re: God's cleansing. When applied back to the metaphor of spots and skin color representing learned evil God speaks of cleansing that had been available.

You've captured their deeply ingrained condition well and tied in the learning from the context.

These continued proof-texted apart from context arguments are the unchangeable spots now.

Exactly where in Jeremiah is this idea of "learned evil"?

Also, you attempt to mitigate the brunt force of the analogy in Jer 13:23 by characterizing "spots and skin color" as metaphors, which they clearly are not unless you can prove that the entities spoken of in part "a" of the verse earned or garnered their spots or skin color by also learning them. Just how does that work in the real world? Leopards learn how to spot themselves and Ethiopians learn how to darken their skin color -- just like Israel "learned" her evil ways from their pagan neighbors? The parallels between part "a" and "b" are more than obvious. In "b" the prophet employed sarcasm to make his point, i.e. the entities in "a" cannot, but you "can" do what they cannot?

Have you gone utterly mad!? Your post brings to mind what Solomon wrote in Eccl 9:3!

 

[Cameron143]

Cameron143 said:
He clearly understands because he rejects it.
Cameron143 said:If the word of God provokes the one to salvation, yet the other remains unchanged, what is the cause for the difference? One who focuses on God says He is the difference.

Why did one understand and reject the Gospel? According to you it was caused by God.

Not so. He rejected it because it was foolishness to him.

 

[cv5]

This was asked of me as well, with the addition of are you smarter than someone else etc. I didnt know how to answer.

Now I do:

Here are just a few potential factors for some accepting or rejecting Christ, the gospel, and/or God’s word:

Rejection:

1) Refusal to be persuaded (Rom 10:21, Rom 2:8, Acts 19:9, Jer 9:5-6, II Thess 2:10-11, Rom 1:21-22) Some specifically refuse to be persuaded by the gospel. Some motives scripture gives for this are self-interest, obstinance, self-deception, and hardened hearts.

2) Contradicting; that is, those who argue against the gospel because they hope to thwart it. Those who are argumentative have started with their conclusion, don’t want to consider they might be wrong, and want to keep others from concluding differently. (Rom 10:21, Acts 13:25, Acts 19:8, II Cor 5:10) Pride and jealousy can be motives.

3) Neglect; not giving thoughts of salvation a high priority (Heb 2:1-4, Matt 22:5, Psa 14:1)

This can happen when someone doesn’t view spiritual matters as significant, whether due to apathy or deliberately dismissing the metaphysical.

4) Stubbornness (Isa 46:12, Ezek 2:4)

5) Self-righteousness (Matt 9:11-12, Jer 8:21-22, Lk 10:29, Rom 10:3)

6) Wanting more and more ‘signs’ as proof (I Cor 1:23, Matt 11:20-22, Jn 6:26-27)

7) Love of sin (Jn 3:19, Prov 2:13-4, Prov 8:36, I Jn 2:15-17. II Thess 2:10-12)

8) Fear of exposure of sin (Jn 3:20, Job 24:15-17)

9) Delusion (Isa 44:19-20, Rom 1:25, II Tim 3:13)

10) No opportunity (Rom 10:14)

11) Think they are a child of God but don’t truly follow God (John 10)

12) Don’t believe testimony of Moses or scripture (Jn 5:46-47, Lk 16:29-31)

13) Try to achieve salvation by works/merit (Col 2:22-23, Gal 5:4, Gal 3:11, Rom 3:10-28)

14) Seeks glory from man, not God (Jn 5:44)

Acceptance:

1) A noble and generous heart (Luke 8:15, Acts 17:11) This is not a ‘sinless’ heart, but one prepared for salvation and ready ready to embrace the word and keep it

2) Trusting as a child (Mk 10:14)

3) Waiting for salvation (Luke 2:25, Acts 13:26-48)

4) Believe testimony (Jn 10:42, II Thess 1:10)

5) Study scriptures (II Tim 3:15, Acts 17:11, Jn 20:31)

6) Humility (Matt 23:12, James 4:10, Psa 25:8-10)


source

100%.
You nailed it sir.

So how can it be that the super-determinists fail to grasp what is so inerrant and clearly presented in Scripture?

 

[Kroogz]

Not so. He rejected it because it was foolishness to him.

Cameron143 said:If the word of God provokes the one to salvation, yet the other remains unchanged, what is the cause for the difference?

 

[sawdust]

they will do anything they can to get rid of the fact that God is in charge of our salvation.

@cv5 @GWH @studier

The above poster thinks we think that we don't believe we are saved by God's grace alone. He/she thinks we save ourselves.

Give a thumbs up to this post if you think we are saved by God's grace alone. Give a disagree if you think we save ourselves.

 

[Magenta]

This was asked of me as well, with the addition of are you smarter than someone else etc. I didnt know how to answer.

Now I do:

Here are just a few potential factors for some accepting or rejecting Christ, the gospel, and/or God’s word:

Rejection:

1) Refusal to be persuaded (Rom 10:21, Rom 2:8, Acts 19:9, Jer 9:5-6, II Thess 2:10-11, Rom 1:21-22) Some specifically refuse to be persuaded by the gospel. Some motives scripture gives for this are self-interest, obstinance, self-deception, and hardened hearts.

2) Contradicting; that is, those who argue against the gospel because they hope to thwart it. Those who are argumentative have started with their conclusion, don’t want to consider they might be wrong, and want to keep others from concluding differently. (Rom 10:21, Acts 13:25, Acts 19:8, II Cor 5:10) Pride and jealousy can be motives.

3) Neglect; not giving thoughts of salvation a high priority (Heb 2:1-4, Matt 22:5, Psa 14:1)

This can happen when someone doesn’t view spiritual matters as significant, whether due to apathy or deliberately dismissing the metaphysical.

4) Stubbornness (Isa 46:12, Ezek 2:4)

5) Self-righteousness (Matt 9:11-12, Jer 8:21-22, Lk 10:29, Rom 10:3)

6) Wanting more and more ‘signs’ as proof (I Cor 1:23, Matt 11:20-22, Jn 6:26-27)

7) Love of sin (Jn 3:19, Prov 2:13-4, Prov 8:36, I Jn 2:15-17. II Thess 2:10-12)

8) Fear of exposure of sin (Jn 3:20, Job 24:15-17)

9) Delusion (Isa 44:19-20, Rom 1:25, II Tim 3:13)

10) No opportunity (Rom 10:14)

11) Think they are a child of God but don’t truly follow God (John 10)

12) Don’t believe testimony of Moses or scripture (Jn 5:46-47, Lk 16:29-31)

13) Try to achieve salvation by works/merit (Col 2:22-23, Gal 5:4, Gal 3:11, Rom 3:10-28)

14) Seeks glory from man, not God (Jn 5:44)

Acceptance:

1) A noble and generous heart (Luke 8:15, Acts 17:11) This is not a ‘sinless’ heart, but one prepared for salvation and ready ready to embrace the word and keep it

2) Trusting as a child (Mk 10:14)

3) Waiting for salvation (Luke 2:25, Acts 13:26-48)

4) Believe testimony (Jn 10:42, II Thess 1:10)

5) Study scriptures (II Tim 3:15, Acts 17:11, Jn 20:31)

6) Humility (Matt 23:12, James 4:10, Psa 25:8-10)


source

Hello Hakawaka! Well, I did not ask that question, but anyways the reason people do not believe is manifold, but explicitly laid out in Scripture pertaining to the characteristics of the as-yet unregnerated person whose heart (it is with the heart one believes) is definitely not good ground for growing the seed of God's Word into faith. Man's heart is incurably wicked and that simply means there is nothing he can do about it, any more than the leopard can change his spots or the Ethiopian the colour of his skin (those are the Biblical examples given with the state of our helplessness in that regard), but God certainly can and does and even promised to. None are good and it is not possible to produce something good from the bad. Jesus said such was impossible. This among many other things said of the flesh are denied and contradicted by the free will crowd who put their man-exalting theology above what is articulated in the Bible. Instead they ascribe to the natural man (unregenerated) what is only possible of the spiritual man (regenerated). The unregenerated person is blinded and taken captive to the will of the devil and refuses to come into the light as a lover of darkness and slave to sin suppressing the truth in unrighteousness and is neither capable of receiving nor comprehending the spiritual things of God, to which he is opposed, nor is he capable of submitting to God. But guess what? We who post these Scriptural truths get told by the free will crowd that they are tired of hearing about it... probaby because they have a grand total of ZERO verses articulating what they believe. They are too attached to their vain man-exalting theology to believe what Scripture says.

Man is deceitful (Jeremiah 17 verse 9), full of evil (Mark 7 verses 21-23), loves darkness rather than light (John 3 verse 19), cannot come to God on his own (John 6 verse 44), does not seek for God (Romans 3 verses 10-12), is helpless and ungodly (Romans 5 verse 6), nothing good dwells in his flesh(Romans 7 verse 18), is a slave of sin (Romans 6 verse 20; John 8 verse 34; 2 Timothy 2 verse 26), cannot receive spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2 verse 14), is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2 verse 1), is by nature a child of wrath (Ephesians 2 verse 3), is at enmity with God (Ephesians 2 verse 15), hostile to God and cannot submit to God's law (Romans 8 verse 7). Therefore we rightfully conclude in accordance with the conditions described of the natural man in Scripture that his inherent inclination is to reject God. Thanks be to God, Who appoints people to believe (Acts 13 verse 48), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Ephesians 1 verse 4), predestines us to adoption (Ephesians 1 verse 5), calls according to His purpose (2 Timothy 1 verse 9), chooses us for salvation (2 Thessalonians 2 verse 13), leads us to and grants us repentance (Romans 2 verse 4; 2 Timothy 2 verses 24-25), grants the act of believing (Philippians 1 verse 29), works faith in the believer (John 6 verses 28-29), causes us to be born again (1 Peter 1 verse 3), born again not by our will but by His will (John 1 verses 12-13), draws people to Himself (John 6 verse 44), grants that we come to Jesus (John 6 verse 65), predestines us to salvation (Romans 8 verses 29- 30), and circumcises our heart (Romans 2 verse 29), all according to His purpose (Ephesians 1 verse 11).

 

[Cameron143]

Cameron143 said:If the word of God provokes the one to salvation, yet the other remains unchanged, what is the cause for the difference?

But the gospel is always foolishness to the natural fallen man. If God does nothing to change this estate, He will die in his sins.

 

[Kroogz]

But the gospel is always foolishness to the natural fallen man. If God does nothing to change this estate, He will die in his sins.

Exactly. Thank you. About time!

The Gospel has no power and has no effect on the unbeliever until he is saved......According to the calvies.

That is why @studier had THE great question a few pages back.

 

[lrs68]

If the word of God is doing the provoking, how is that not the activity of God?
Two individuals hear the same gospel. If the word of God provokes the one to salvation, yet the other remains unchanged, what is the cause for the difference?

The key here is that it is God who provokes [both] people.
So both people are now aware of their situation in life because they're at a crossroads to choose Salvation or to reject it.
The ability to choose also makes us accountable come Judgement Day.

 

[sawdust]

Many here believe that if God doesn't treat everyone equally

That's not the issue. The issue is if God isn't judging our response to the Gospel, made freely from our own soul just as Adam freely gave his own response to the word and Christ freely gave His own response to the word, then He is judging Himself for choosing who believes and who doesn't for He has predicated eternal life on those who believe. If He decides who believes and who doesn't, then He has become both the believer and the unbeliever. This contradicts His nature, He cannot decide to accept Himself and deny Himself at the same time.

 

[Rufus]

The key here is that it is God who provokes [both] people.
So both people are now aware of their situation in life because they're at a crossroads to choose Salvation or to reject it.
The ability to choose also makes us accountable come Judgement Day.

Nonsense! A sinner's sins are what makes him accountable on judgment day, and God's precious, efficacious, powerful, supernatural grace is what make repentant sinners partakers of Christ's righteousness and God's great salvation.

 

[Cameron143]

Exactly. Thank you. About time!

The Gospel has no power and has no effect on the unbeliever until he is saved......According to the calvies.

That is why @studier had THE great question a few pages back.

Wrong again. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation. You believe the gospel is the power of men unto salvation.

 

[Magenta]

The key here is that it is God who provokes [both] people.
So both people are now aware of their situation in life because they're at a crossroads to choose Salvation or to reject it.
The ability to choose also makes us accountable come Judgement Day.

Lots was said about the messed up coding in that series of posts but people keep quoting them and acting like I said
things I did not. I was simply trying to help sort out the mess and you guys keep perpetuating the mess. Gosh.

 

[Kroogz]

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation.

Cameron143 said:
But the gospel is always foolishness to the natural fallen man.