Which is a non sequitur since I never broached the timing of Abraham's faith with you. I suspect you created that rabbit trail to distract from the question I asked about Pharaoh. Why can't you give me a straight up answer!? Did not God in Ex 3 predict to Moses that Pharaoh would not let his people go, and then in Ex 4 reveal to Moses how He would fulfill his prophecy long beore the later chapters in Exodus that teach that Pharoah hardened his own heart?
Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
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Which is a non sequitur since I never broached the timing of Abraham's faith with you. I suspect you created that rabbit trail to distract from the question I asked about Pharaoh. Why can't you give me a straight up answer!? Did not God in Ex 3 predict to Moses that Pharaoh would not let his people go, and then in Ex 4 reveal to Moses how He would fulfill his prophecy long beore the later chapters in Exodus that teach that Pharoah hardened his own heart?
So you don't respond because i ask you a personal question that's based on a personal answer.
So can you see how personal objective truths can influence a person to make accusations.
Because I've asked you a personal question and you've assumed I've given you a personal remark.
Let's move on
Why do you see it as a personal truth (objective) Jesus died for the whole world.
Grace given for salvation makes one's soul free to choose!!!!!!!!
All God needs to do is to shut down the effects of the flesh over the soul,
and you have a soul make free to make a choice.
Free to believe.
Also... free to reject!
That is why the unbeliever is held accountable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
......
You blew it.Wrong! The true seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are the children of promise. Genealogical descent in God's eyes means nothing! You are judging by mere external appearance, whereas God judges the heart which is not seen by others.
Moreover, you conveniently forget another crucially important aspect to the covenant whereby God promised ABRAHAM that he would become the father of a "great nation", i.e. Israel!
Others know it.
you've done some deep thinking there would you say that Grace was enabling grace
I made a comment that the record concerning Abraham in Genesis 22 occurred after Genesis 15 ... then you brought up some nonsense about pharaoh ... here's the discussion ...
Cameron143 said:
Faith is non-meritorious when it's source is God. When the source is man, it is meritorious.
reneweddaybyday said:
Genesis 15:
4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
God's Word was spoken to Abraham ... Abraham believed ... God counted it to Abraham for righteousness.
God did not impute faith to Abraham ... God imputed righteousness to Abraham.
4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
God's Word was spoken to Abraham ... Abraham believed ... God counted it to Abraham for righteousness.
God did not impute faith to Abraham ... God imputed righteousness to Abraham.
Cameron143 said:
That passage says nothing about the source of faith.
reneweddaybyday said:
The passage also does not state that God gave Abraham faith and then Abraham believed.
The passage states that God imputed righteousness to Abraham when Abraham believed what God told him.
And Romans 4 reiterates the Gen 15 passage and makes clear that faith is not works.
The passage states that God imputed righteousness to Abraham when Abraham believed what God told him.
And Romans 4 reiterates the Gen 15 passage and makes clear that faith is not works.
Rufus said:
Do you think Abraham was a God-fearer?
Magenta said:
When they arrived at the place God had designated, Abraham built the altar there and arranged the wood. He bound his son Isaac and placed him on the altar, atop the wood. Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to slaughter his son. Just then the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, “Abraham, Abraham!” “Here I am,” he replied. “Do not lay a hand on the boy or do anything to him,” said the angel, “for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your only son from me.” Then Abraham looked up and saw behind him a ram in a thicket, caught by its horns. So he went and took the ram and offered it as a burnt offering in place of his son. (From Genesis 22)
reneweddaybyday said:
This record occurs after the record wherein Abraham believed God and God imputed righteousness to Abraham (Genesis 15).
Rufus said:
Oh...you mean just like the record of Pharaoh hardening his own heart occurred well after God's prophecy re the king in Ex 3 and how He would fulfill that by hardening Pharaoh's heart (Ex 4)?
in following the discussion ... it was you who "created that rabbit trail to distract from" the conversation concerning Abraham.Rufus said:
So ... back to my question concerning Abraham ...
please provide the Scripture which reveals God gave Abraham faith before Abraham believed.
Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Thank you.
.
You have yet to realize what grace does.
It is God's enabling power the make those who are incapable to be made able to be as God wants them to be.
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect.
No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me."
1 Corinthians 15:10
Grace is real power which enables!
No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me."
1 Corinthians 15:10
Grace is real power which enables!
Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world
that all men do not learn the lesson does not mean the grace of God has not appeared to all men ... it just means some turn from the teaching of the grace of God to man's "teaching" (aka lies).
.
ok well your insertion of me not knowing was not accurate but never mind.
I agree with your answer in defining what enabling grace means.
But what's your answer to a person being free without enabling grace.
has it occured to you that within every message from God there is his will ?
I suppose Jesus and the Jews of His day blew it also when the Pharisees answered in response to Him:
John 8:37-41
37 I know you are Abraham's [natural] descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father."
39 "Abraham is our father ," they answered.
"If you were Abraham's [spiritual] children [of promise]," said Jesus, "then you would do the things Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the things your own [spiritual] father does."
NIV
Anything else you feel like getting dead wrong?
The appearance of grace is not the experience of grace. If it meant the experience of grace, all would have been taught to deny ungodliness, etc.
Do you really believe that after all that has been shared with you that people here see themselves as elected and not you ?
The way your seeing elect is different to what elect means
Election means adoption
Adoption is a beautiful thing
I didn't distract from anything. I drew an ANALOGY between what you said re Gen 15 about the chronological order of the Genesis narrative re Abraham and the chronological order of Paharaoh's hardened heart in Ex 3ff. Of course, the reason I made this analogy is because I know you'd prefer to dip your entire body in a vat of acid before you would agree that your logic re the chronology of the Abraham narrative in Gen applies with equal force to Exodus narrative re the hardened heart of Pharaoh. But You're far too PROUD to admit your error and how you inconsistently interpret scripture. Surely, you believe that Pharaoh hardened his own heart first and God knew this because He peered into his cosmic crystal ball; therefore, God's prediction was based solely on his prescience and not divine prerogative, even though the latter is what what Ex 4 teaches!
Sure God knew that Pharaoh would not let them go. But God "turned His back" aka "hardened his heart" AFTER he (Pharaoh) refused the command to do so. Multiple times.
Thats ALWAYS the way it works buddy.
And yes, you made the FREE WILL decision to omit the necessary context.
Exo 4:23
And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.