Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

Yes, I would say Enoch seems to have chosen well in responding to God - having faith in God, walking with God, and
pleasing God, all of which words and actions have by God's grace been made available to us to choose as well.

Are you saying God walks and talks with people just as He did with Enoch???

 

[Cameron143]

And I've explained that the wages of sin is death not the lake of fire so to say the Cross didn't deal with death when you recognise it is the pivot upon which people pass from death to life is weird.

And I showed you the verse that says death must give up it's dead. It cannot hold them forever because Christ paid the price for all.

You continue to ignore the obvious. Christ paid for our sins by dying, not by going to the lake of fire. If the penalty for sin was eternal torment then that was the price that needed to be paid. He did not pay that price ergo the lake of fire is not the wages of sin.

If you'll indulge me I would like to back up a little bit.
What did Jesus accomplish on the cross?

 

[lrs68]

What part of the word CAUSE do you not understand?
1. a. : a reason for an action or condition : motive. b. : something that brings about an effect or a result.

Blessed is the man You choose,
And cause to approach You,
Psa 65:4

But it always brings a response, action, reaction, rejection, acception, interest, curiosity, etc.

Romans 1 describes Psalms 65:4 to the letter. Difference being the rejection of God where in Exodus 3 Moses turned to see but chooses to remain.

But let's explore Psalms 65:4 for a moment here.
I love how David wrote... and CAUSE to approach You...
David did not write that God (made or makes) a man approach God but [CAUSES] {Free Will} man to approach God.

In other words, David is saying if what God does causes a man to approach God that man is BLESSED.

In everything there's an opposite.

So it could also read if what God does causes a man to reject God [(like in Romans 1 and Corinthians)] then that man is opposite of Blessed but rather CURSED [(just like those who reject God in Romans 1 and end up with a REPROBATE MIND)].

Either way, David in Psalms 65:4 proves Free Will 100%

 

[cv5]

Yes, I would say Enoch seems to have chosen well in responding to God - having faith in God, walking with God, and pleasing God, all of which words and actions have by God's grace been made available to us to choose as well.

Well, it should be obvious that Enoch was willing to do His will, therefore became a man after God's own heart,

In other words, Enoch RECEIVED all of the doctrine and all of the grace that came with it. Much like Abel.

So then @Rufus, how does your absolute universal super-determinism philosophy work as regards Enoch exactly?
Kidnapped against his will, lobotomize and reprogram?

And you nor any of your ilk on this thread has ever admitted that this is your perspective on salvation. Nor have you nor any of your ilk admitted to the "pre-birth sovereign lottery" soteriology position outright.

What you rather do is NOT admit to them, but smother and deflect by chirping out Bible verses then scurry away.

 

[Genez]

Jesus bore in His body sins on the cross...Hebrews 9:28. Matthew 1:21...Jesus saves His people from their sins. The cross is about paying for sins, not keeping people from death. Everyone still dies. The sacrifice on the cross didn't deal with this. What it did was allow believers to pass from death to life...1 John 3:14, and are no longer under condemnation...Romans 8:1.

If Jesus didn't pay for sins on the cross, when were sins paid for? And everyone isn't released from death. People continue to die physically and remain separated from God spiritually.

I've twice explained that Jesus suffered on the cross whatever is necessary to satisfy God's wrath against believer's sins. If not, how can one no longer be under condemnation?

Do you know what would have happened if God did not pay the penalty for mankind's sins?

What?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Are you saying God walks and talks with people just as He did with Enoch???

just gotta learn to listen ...

1 Kings And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
.

 

[Genez]

Nonsense! What happened at the Fall is exactly what God predicted would happen: DEATH! Adam died because he became separated from the Author of Life! Man's umbilical cord (in a manner of speaking) became severed from its Life Source; therefore, all mankind died!

Ask this question from a different perspective. Instead of asking it from the angle of the Fall in the original Garden of Eden, approach it by looking at the restored Garden in the Eternal New Order (Rev 21-22) and ask instead: Why will there be no sin and death in the renewed earth? What precisely will account for the universal restraint of all evil and the universal impelling of all good on this restored earth?

Also, Studier was finally on the mark by appealing to Gen 5:1ff. Since Adam was made in the image and likeness of the Creator, so too all of Adam's progeny were as well...but with a caveat. The image and likeness of God was marred significantly when Adam sinned but it didn't die. It didn't disappear. But it was catastrophically ruined. (We could look at this as a burnt out, gutted building that is only a shell of its former glory.) We get a big clue to this fact from Gen 5. Of all the descendants of Adam only Enoch "walked with God". The others? Not so much! The ruined image and likeness of Adam was passed down to all his posterity, which is why the text essentially says that Seth was made directly from Adam's image and likeness, implying an indirect connection to God's image and likeness; whereas Adam's pre-Fall image and likeness was perfectly and directly connected to God.

Of course, what made the difference between Enoch and the other descendants was God's efficacious grace; although Studier and others would be loathe to accept this and instead likely boast in the efficacy of Enoch's "freewill".

What does God's grace actually accomplish concerning man's will as to how a man will think and live?

Is grace forcing man to do God's will?

Keep it simple.
Answer please.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

But it always brings a response, action, reaction, rejection, acception, interest, curiosity, etc.

Romans 1 describes Psalms 65:4 to the letter.

In agreement. Folks always read Romans 1:18-32 without considering Romans 1:16-17.

They either read Romans 1:18-32 ... or they read Romans 1:16-17. It's so interesting to me that this is how Scripture is read.

And I'm glad you brought this issue to light and tied the response in Psalm 65:4 to the response in Romans 1 ...

Romans 1:

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

There are only 2 responses to God's Word ...

believe and receive the blessing

suppress the truth in unrighteousness and receive the consequence
.

 

[studier]

Well, it should be obvious that Enoch was willing to do His will, therefore became a man after God's own heart,

In other words, Enoch RECEIVED all of the doctrine and all of the grace that came with it. Much like Abel.

So then @Rufus, how does your absolute universal super-determinism philosophy work as regards Enoch exactly?
Kidnapped against his will, lobotomize and reprogram?

And you nor any of your ilk on this thread has ever admitted that this is your perspective on salvation. Nor have you nor any of your ilk admitted to the "pre-birth sovereign lottery" soteriology position outright.

What you rather do is NOT admit to them, but smother and deflect by chirping out Bible verses then scurry away.

Exod. 34:5-7 NKJ 5 Now the LORD descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. 6 And the LORD passed before him and proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, 7 "keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children to the third and the fourth generation."

We're all prone to error. Some more than others.

One of the lessons I think is extremely beneficial is a good series on God's perfect essence and how He functions perfectly in all of His attributes. He is perfectly gracious and merciful while being perfectly judicious.

We in His image but damaged tend to lean towards certain characteristics and are extremely imbalanced, so to speak.

As an example, as I observe what we call "liberals" some in a sense lean so heavily towards what they might view as compassion that they pervert it, and it becomes injustice. In this sense some who are religious seem to act as if they need to protect the compassion and mercy of God, as if He needs protecting.

As I have observed some Calvinists, they tend to lean so far into God's Grace and Sovereignty that they minimize God's creating men in His image and likeness and in effect destroy what He has created and turn us into nothing - corpses. Again, as if God's attributes need protecting. We don't need to inordinately tear down men to glorify God.

IOW, it's completely unnecessary and actually destructive to weight any of God's attributes - including Love - against His other attributes. He, simply put, exists and functions in perfect harmony in a way that is very, very difficult if not impossible to fathom. And there is nothing we can do to harm Him, lessen Him, change Him, and in the end, He needs no protection. We don't need to minimize His creation - men - in order to maximize Him. He's already way beyond anything we can make of Him.

We just need to see the harmony and balance He's built into His Word based upon who He perfectly is. Distort this in any way, even minimally, and we should consider how a minor error expands as does a small angle close to the core widens in time and space.

There's acute precision in His Word. We just need to be constantly seeking it/Him.

 

[studier]

There are only 2 responses to God's Word ...

believe and receive the blessing

suppress the truth in unrighteousness and receive the consequence

So, make the right choice.

 

[Magenta]

As I have observed some Calvinists, they tend to lean so far into God's Grace and Sovereignty that they minimize God's creating men in His image and likeness and in effect destroy what He has created and turn us into nothing - corpses. Again, as if God's attributes need protecting. We don't need to inordinately tear down men to glorify God.

There's acute precision in His Word. We just need to be constantly seeking it/Him.

You love perverting the Word of God. Scripture says we are dead in our trespasses and sins, not corpses.

If you were not dead in your trespasses and sins, there would be no need to be raised to new life in Christ.

But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with
Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!

 

[Kroogz]

Either way, David in Psalms 65:4 proves Free Will 100%

Reformed theology does this very thing with Romans 9:

14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? [l]Far from it! 15For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION.” 16So then, it does not depend on the person who [m]wants it nor the one who [n]runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY REASON I RAISED YOU UP, IN ORDER TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED [o]THROUGHOUT THE EARTH.” 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

The Jews were making the very same argument that reformed theology does today......... The Jews were arguing to Paul: He arbitrarily determines His selected ones and cannot go to the gentiles.

Reformed are arguing: He arbitrarily determines His selected ones and cannot go to ALL sinners.

These verses REFUTE reformed theology. And reformed theology twist them to try to "make their case."

 

[Cameron143]

Do you know what would have happened if God did not pay the penalty for mankind's sins?

What?

No reconciliation would be possible.

 

[cv5]

You love perverting the Word of God. Scripture says we are dead in our trespasses and sins, not corpses.

If you were not dead in your trespasses and sins, there would be no need to be raised to new life in Christ.

But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with
Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!

So how exactly are super-determinist misapprehensions, errors and exegetical failures to be construed as sound biblical doctrine?

By repeating them ad nauseum?

I mean, everyone can see that this is the only method remaining to them, as they have been soundly defeated at every challenge, skirmish and battle

 

[HeIsHere]

So how exactly are super-determinist misapprehensions, errors and exegetical failures to be construed as sound biblical doctrine?

By repeating them ad nauseum?

I mean, everyone can see that this is the only method remaining to them, as they have been soundly defeated at every challenge, skirmish and battle

They (those who preach the TULIP system) preach another Jesus,

a Jesus who doesn't love everyone
a Jesus who not die for everyone and
a Jesus who does not want all to be saved.

I would say places it outside of Christian orthodoxy.

 

[Magenta]

They (those who preach the TULIP system) preach another Jesus,

a Jesus who doesn't love everyone
a Jesus who not die for everyone and
a Jesus who does not want all to be saved.

I would say places it outside of Christian orthodoxy.

How many here preach the tulip system? One?

You are another one who perverts the Word of God... talking about corpses and telling people to go preach
in cemeteries and then you lie about it and claim it is others who conflate spiritual death with physical death.

I wonder that so many here lie so easily and frequently. I would say it places you outside of Christian morality.

 

[Kroogz]

They(those who preach the TULIP system)

a Jesus who doesn't love everyone
a Jesus who not die for everyone and
a Jesus who does not want all to be saved.

And It makes God unjust. It impugns His Righteousness. (not to mention all His other attributes.)

It's a constant face palm when reformed theology brings up the Justice and righteousness of God.

Their view of God has no integrity. Just their version of Sovereignty.......... even that is impugned.

 

[Magenta]

There's acute precision in His Word.

Damaged, eh? Not corrupted? Depraved even? Gosh, I would love it if you adhered to the precision of His Word! But alas. You do not.

Psalm 14 verses 1-3; Job 15 verse 16 ~ The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt; their acts are vile. There is no one who does good. The LORD looks down from heaven upon the sons of men to see if any understand, if any seek God. All have turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. Man is vile and corrupt.

 

[cv5]

Exod. 34:5-7 NKJ 5 Now the LORD descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. 6 And the LORD passed before him and proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, 7 "keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children to the third and the fourth generation."

We're all prone to error. Some more than others.

One of the lessons I think is extremely beneficial is a good series on God's perfect essence and how He functions perfectly in all of His attributes. He is perfectly gracious and merciful while being perfectly judicious.

We in His image but damaged tend to lean towards certain characteristics and are extremely imbalanced, so to speak.

As an example, as I observe what we call "liberals" some in a sense lean so heavily towards what they might view as compassion that they pervert it, and it becomes injustice. In this sense some who are religious seem to act as if they need to protect the compassion and mercy of God, as if He needs protecting.

As I have observed some Calvinists, they tend to lean so far into God's Grace and Sovereignty that they minimize God's creating men in His image and likeness and in effect destroy what He has created and turn us into nothing - corpses. Again, as if God's attributes need protecting. We don't need to inordinately tear down men to glorify God.

IOW, it's completely unnecessary and actually destructive to weight any of God's attributes - including Love - against His other attributes. He, simply put, exists and functions in perfect harmony in a way that is very, very difficult if not impossible to fathom. And there is nothing we can do to harm Him, lessen Him, change Him, and in the end, He needs no protection. We don't need to minimize His creation - men - in order to maximize Him. He's already way beyond anything we can make of Him.

We just need to see the harmony and balance He's built into His Word based upon who He perfectly is. Distort this in any way, even minimally, and we should consider how a minor error expands as does a small angle close to the core widens in time and space.

There's acute precision in His Word. We just need to be constantly seeking it/Him.

Well.....it's the shipwreck that the super-determinists have made of the legitimate doctrine of salvation that gets me.

No doubt Paul would have issued a scathing rebuke.....and so should we

 

[cv5]

They (those who preach the TULIP system) preach another Jesus,

a Jesus who doesn't love everyone
a Jesus who not die for everyone and
a Jesus who does not want all to be saved.

I would say places it outside of Christian orthodoxy.

Consider two possibilities:

1) at the very LEAST they are like petulant children who gleefully smash beautiful pearls of sound biblical doctrine with a big ugly super-determinist hammer.

2) they are like the vultures of Genesis 15 swooping down to devour the God-ordained doctrinal imbued sacrifices. Something entirely more sinister.