Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Cameron143]

You have clearly stated several times explicitly that you think that God is not fair. And then supported your view with lines of reasoning.

If this were true, then the ministry of Jesus should prove it one way or another.

So......is Jesus fair?

[Mat 20:12-15 KJV] 12 Saying, These last have wrought [but] one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

14 Take [that] thine [is], and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

Fairness isn't an attribute of God is what I have said. Justness or righteousness is. Depending upon how one defines fairness determines whether or not God is fair in their view. If fairness is the equal treatment of all, then clearly God is not fair. If fairness is the quality of being just, then God is fair. So, what is your definition of fair?

 

[Cameron143]

So....were they?

Already answered.

 

[Cameron143]

It's not eternal wrath, that's the whole point! It's being born dead in our sins and the grave, that's the punishment for our sins. We know it's not eternal wrath because there was a limit to Christ's suffering. He suffered what it was like to be dead in sin and cut off from God for three hours and He went down into the grave/Hades and the reason it could not hold Him, was not because He is God, but because He had no sin in His humanity.

It's also how we know Christ died for all because death has to give everyone up and hand them over to Christ, the saved and unsaved alike. Death and Hades are empty when thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:13
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

Is the Lake of Fire eternal?

 

[cv5]

Already answered.

Ex post facto the RECEIVING of the gospel so you said. But beforehand?

 

[NightTwister]

Can anyone give me scripture that talks about OSAS or the other way? I Am not sure what to believe, but I don't want to go against scripture.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." -- John 10:27-28 ESV
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John 10&version=ESV

 

[cv5]

Is the Lake of Fire eternal?

Its eternal separation, an eternal prison in effect. In the sense of separation from the righteous.

 

[Cameron143]

Ex post facto the RECEIVING of the gospel so you said. But beforehand?

I said they were saved when Paul met them.

 

[Cameron143]

Its eternal separation, an eternal prison in effect. In the sense of separation from the righteous.

Revelation 20:10 and 21:8 suggest more than simply separation.

 

[cv5]

I said they were saved when Paul met them.

But precisely how pray tell?

 

[cv5]

Revelation 20:10 and 21:8 suggest more than simply separation.

That would be the inevitable environmental conditions, concomitant upon the exercising of the FREE WILL of those who inhabit it.

Evil continually without remedy. And continual judgement for their evil.

 

[cv5]

Acts 17:31
For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”

Ps 98:9
Before the LORD; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity.

Ps 9:8
And He will judge the world in righteousness; He will execute judgment for the peoples fairly.

Equal privilege and equal opportunity.

Make sure and tell @Cameron143.

Evil intent sows bad doctrine? Anybody we know?

[Pro 14:22 KJV]
Do they not err that devise evil? but mercy and truth H571 to them that devise good.

Which can be understood to be RIGHT DOCTRINE.

The KJV translates Strong's H571 in the following manner:

1. as spoken
2. of testimony and judgment
3. of divine instruction
4. truth as a body of ethical or religious knowledge
5. true doctrine

 

[Cameron143]

But precisely how pray tell?

They believed in Messiah like all OT believers.

 

[Magenta]

Revelation 20:10 and 21:8 suggest more than simply separation.

Part of the problem is people repeating the lie of Satan at the heart of the fall of man and corruption of all creation.

 

[Cameron143]

That would be the inevitable environmental conditions, concomitant upon the exercising of the FREE WILL of those who inhabit it.

Evil continually without remedy. And continual judgement for their evil.

You have an odd way of saying...You're right.

 

[cv5]

They believed in Messiah like all OT believers.

Because, according to the super-determinists, they were winners in the pre-birth lottery?

Because according to the Calvinists, one way or another, it always boils down to this "pre-birth lottery" as being the ONLY mechanism for anyone to be saved.

Not belief, not "receiving", not free will desiring. Man is incapable of any of these things.
Nay, but according to the testimony of the Calvinists on this thread, God MUST "pre-select" those who will come to believe before they are ever born.

 

[cv5]

Part of the problem is people repeating the lie of Satan at the heart of the fall of man and corruption of all creation.

Nope.

[Pro 16:6 KJV]
By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD [men] depart from evil.


[Pro 15:3 KJV]
The eyes of the LORD [are] in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

 

[Magenta]

Romans 8 verse 29-30; Ephesians 1 verse 5 ~ Those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I said they were saved when Paul met them.

I do not believe they were born again ... however, they had been baptized unto John's gospel (Acts 19:3) ... the purpose of John's gospel was to prepare the way of the Lord (John 1:6-7).

I believe Paul then taught the people the way of the Lord more perfectly ... same as what Priscilla and Aquila did when they met up with Apollos ... who also knew only the gospel of John (Acts 18:24-26).

The Ephesians had not rejected John's gospel so they were prepared to receive the gospel of Christ, which when Paul had taught them then they were born again of Holy Spirit.
.

 

[Cameron143]

Because, according to the super-determinists, they were winners in the pre-birth lottery?

Because according to the Calvinists, one way or another, it always boils down to this "pre-birth lottery" as being the ONLY mechanism for anyone to be saved.

Not belief, not "receiving", not free will desiring. Man is incapable of any of these things.
Nay, but according to the testimony of the Calvinists on this thread, God MUST "pre-select" those who will come to believe before they are ever born.

Sounds like your argument is with them. Understanding the outworking of salvation isn't necessary for salvation.

 

[Magenta]

Sounds like your argument is with them. Understanding the outworking of salvation isn't necessary for salvation.

They are not on board with God's sovereignty.