Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[cv5]

just an fyi, Blain ... I am one who does not believe 1 Cor 2:14 includes the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, which is the power of God unto salvation ... and this has been explained to Magenta more than a few of times.

1 Corinthians 1:

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

These verses do not state that those who are perishing cannot understand the message of the cross ... they do understand ... and they consider the message of the cross foolish. iow, they suppress the truth in unrighteousness due to holding man's wisdom (the wisdom of words – 1 Cor 1:17 or the wisdom of the wise – 1 Cor 1:19) above the wisdom of God.


1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

There is no indication in 1 Cor 1:18 that those who are perishing cannot know the gospel.

However, 1 Cor 2:14 states the deeper things of God referred to in 1 Cor 2:6-16 cannot be known by the natural man ... why? Because the natural man spoken of in 1 Cor 2:14 consists of:

1) those who are not born again ... they have not taken that first step which would allow them to know spiritual matters which go beyond the scope of the gospel; or

2) those who are born again but are immature in their walk with the Lord ... either because they are newly born again and need to feed on the milk of the word or they are carnal believers who follow men as opposed to maturing in the things of God ... these carnal believers also need to continue to feed on the milk of the word according to 1 Cor 3:1-4.

more info to follow concerning 1 Cor 2:14 and the context within which the verse sits ...
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The "natural man" Calvinist myth/tradition has been debunked dozens of times on this thread already.

However abandoning it would collapse the Reformed house of cards. So they don't.

 

[Mem]

We're all gonna die, either in our sins, because you do not believe that "I am He," or in Christ, because you believe that "I am He." And we're all going to be resurrected, either to eternal life or to the second death, where there is no more hope of resurrection.

 

[Kroogz]

I cannot bring myself in agreement that God's love is not universal or unconditional in nature. God loves the world, which includes the righteous and those who love Him and keep his commandments, yes. But God saves the righteous. because His salvation is, indeed, condition of, and only of, faith.

This is why every believer should study the "loves" in His word.

God has an unconditional and impersonal love for ALL.....That is HIM. He loves because of who and what He Is.

He has a personal love for believers.....that is because of RELATIONSHIP.

 

[Mem]

Somebody inform the Calvinists that God unconditionally loves Satan, the elder lost son.
Proven beyond a shadow of a doubt in Scripture. If you actually understand the content that is.

This is interesting, if it is not so obviously a novel thought, which compels me to wonder, Is the term "whence" involved in the explanation? I can't imagine God not loving anyone that originates from Him.

 

[Mem]

This is why every believer should study the "loves" in His word.

God has an unconditional and impersonal love for ALL.....That is HIM. He loves because of who and what He Is.

He has a personal love for believers.....that is because of RELATIONSHIP.

"...So that your joy may be full" in contrast to "taking no pleasure in the death of the wicked," comes to mind.

 

[Magenta]

No. She is telling us our understanding of salvation according to her has us making God be unfair.

Eh, she says quite often how God is unfair if He were to do something He is shown to do all throughout the
Bible, so it is not our understanding she is characterizing at all but rather she is showcasing her ignorance.

 

[Kroogz]

Eh, she says quite often how God is unfair if He were to do something He is shown to do all throughout the
Bible, so it is not our understanding she is characterizing at all but rather she is showcasing her ignorance.

And some showcase their bitterness....Especially towards other women.

 

[cv5]

Were they saved when Paul arrived?

So....were they?

 

[cv5]

No. She is telling us our understanding of salvation according to her has us making God be unfair.

You have clearly stated several times explicitly that you think that God is not fair. And then supported your view with lines of reasoning.

If this were true, then the ministry of Jesus should prove it one way or another.

So......is Jesus fair?

[Mat 20:12-15 KJV] 12 Saying, These last have wrought [but] one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

14 Take [that] thine [is], and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Surely there must be some kind of misunderstanding? it is pretty clear from scripture alone that the natural cannot comprehend the spiritual and that faith is a gift from God alone.

following up on Post 9417 ...

We know from 1 Cor 1 and 1 Cor 3 that the church at Corinth was divided, contentious, carnal, full of envying and strife:

1 Corinthians 1:10-12 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

to be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment is a result of following the Lord Jesus Christ. If you are following the Lord Jesus Christ and I am following the Lord Jesus Christ, we will have fellowship one with another (1 John 1:7).

the reason there were contentions among the believers was because they were following men ... I am of Paul ... I am of Apollos ... I am of Cephas.

This truth is further corroborated in 1 Cor 3:

1 Corinthians 3:1-4 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

please note in 1 Cor 3:2, Paul stated I have fed you with milk and not with meat ... because the believers in the general congregation were not able to bear the meat of the Word.

now we'll focus on what is written in 1 Cor 2 ...

In 1 Cor 2 Paul states that he preached Jesus Christ, and Him crucified... which is the gospel by which the unbeliever is brought from death to life ... and the newly born again one is to continue to follow the Lord, feed on the milk of the Word, and grow from newborn babe to maturity then feed on the meat.

1 Corinthians 2:2-5 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

This is what was taught by Paul in the general congregation. Paul was discouraging the believers from following men ... Paul was encouraging the believers to follow the Lord Jesus Christ ... feed on the milk of the Word and grow to spiritual maturity.


Now read verse 6 where Paul describes what was discussed and taught to the more mature believers in the church at Corinth:

1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought

The words "are perfect" are translated from the Greek word téleios which means mature, of full age. Paul specifically states that he and other more mature believers spoke wisdom amongst themselves. These discussions were not held in the regular church congregation.

1 Cor 2:6-16 specifically relates to spiritual matters which go beyond the scope of the gospel taught in the general congregation of the church:

vs 6 – the wisdom was discussed among the mature believers ... the gospel was taught in the general congregation (vss 1-2).

vs 7 – the wisdom of God in a mystery ... this wisdom was kept secret since the world began (Rom 16:25); and in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men (Eph 3:5); and from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God (Eph 3:9); and which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest (Col 1:26). Please understand, the gospel was never hid by God ... the gospel is proclaimed throughout all of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation.

vs 8 – if the devil and his minions had known the mystery, the hidden wisdom, they never would have crucified the Lord Jesus Christ.

vs 9 – the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).

vs 10 – the deep things of God go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel). The gospel is considered milk upon which the new believer (and, in fact, all believers) is to desire so that he/she may grow thereby ... the mystery, the hidden wisdom is (scripturally) considered to be strong meat.

vs 11 – the things of God which no man knoweth go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).

vs 12 – the things that are freely given to us of God go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).

vs 13 – things which the Holy Ghost teacheth go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).

vs 14 – the things of the Spirit of God and specifically the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).


hope/pray you consider these verses and the verses from 1 Cor 1 I spoke about earlier and pray this helps you understand that those who believe the gospel can be understood by the unbeliever when the full gospel is preached are not "heretical", nor deniers of Scripture. It is the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe ... additionally, God is the One Who reaches out to the unbeliever through faithful believers ... it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them who are lost ... no one who has posted in this thread believes the natural man just decides one day to believe the gospel ... it is always God Who reaches out first as He draws men and women to Himself through His lovingkindness.
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[enril]

Can anyone give me scripture that talks about OSAS or the other way? I Am not sure what to believe, but I don't want to go against scripture.

 

[sawdust]

If the punishment for our sins is eternal wrath, the payment for our sins must satisfy God's eternal wrath. On the cross, God poured out upon Jesus the equivalency of wrath that was required for every believer to be forgiven. Jesus, being God, eternal and omnipotent, bore the equivalency of eternal wrath for every believer. For us, being human, we cannot throughout eternity suffer the wrath that would satisfy God's anger. Jesus, being God, can suffer the wrath of the Father and satisfy our debt. He did so on the cross, and said so when He said...It is finished. At that point, God's anger was assuaged for all those who believe.

What do you believe happens to those who die unsaved?

It's not eternal wrath, that's the whole point! It's being born dead in our sins and the grave, that's the punishment for our sins. We know it's not eternal wrath because there was a limit to Christ's suffering. He suffered what it was like to be dead in sin and cut off from God for three hours and He went down into the grave/Hades and the reason it could not hold Him, was not because He is God, but because He had no sin in His humanity.

It's also how we know Christ died for all because death has to give everyone up and hand them over to Christ, the saved and unsaved alike. Death and Hades are empty when thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:13
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

first ... apologies it has taken so long to respond ... just a lot on my plate and what we're discussing goes beyond just scratching the surface ...

I wonder if we are both confusing each other because you said here that:

"God creates new life at that very instant within that newly born again one. It's not that God enlivens something that is already within the person ..."

.. whereas I'm sure I heard you say before that man is born with a spirit and the new birth is the Holy Spirit "energizing" his spirit. I'm paraphrasing somewhat and I could be mistaken?

I went back through the info submitted by me in this thread and I do not see where I stated what you claim.

I said this:

God creates a new heart within each born again one at the time he or she believes the gospel of Christ. New life ... something that did not exist prior to you (or I) coming to faith in Christ ... is created within the believer.

I believe the new life that is gained in the new birth is the human spirit. I do not see the spirit as part of the soul but being distinct from and with it's own function, like you said we (believers) are now spirit, soul and body.

in agreement soul is soul and spirit is spirit.

The other difference is you see Gen.1:26-28 as God creating a spirit but I say God created a soul because as far as I have found, nowhere in scripture does it speak of God creating (bara) the human spirit, it is said to be given or said to be generated/birthed.

I do not believe God created nephesh in Gen 1:26-28 ... nephesh was created on Day 5 (Gen 1:20-23). As I indicated, the only difference between living creatures (nephesh) and Adam is that God breathed into Adam's (nephesh) ... which is something God did not do in living creatures on Day 5. The nephesh is the same ... it is breath life.

The other difference between Adam and the living creatures is that Adam was created in the image and likeness of God ... that was "God creating (bara) the human spirit".

So Adam was different from all other living creatures in his nephesh ... because God breathed into Adam's nephesh (soul) something He did not breathe into all other living creatures ... and Adam was created in the image of God (spirit). Adam was originally spirit, soul, body.

Also the scripture refers to humans as souls, not spirits so it doesn't make sense to me to say God created a spirit in Gen 1.27 I see the soul that was created in Gen 1.27 as one of the breath of lives that God breathed into Adam, the other life being the birthing of a spirit. Then, when Adam sinned, his spirit returned to God and Adam became body and soul only. He needed, now, to be born again.

In agreement that when Adam sinned, he no longer reflected the image of God (in his (Adam's) spirit.

Have you considered the verses wherein God tells us He takes away the stony heart and gives a new heart of flesh?

I believe that the old stony heart that is removed by God from the newborn believer is what originally housed the image of God in Adam. Then, when we are born again, God removes the old stony heart and creates the new heart within ... the heart of flesh ... the abode of the new creation within the born again believer.

I agree with us being born of incorruptible seed and as far as I am concerned it only serves to emphasize that it was not a spirit that God create in Gen.1 because souls can be corrupted but a spirit that is born of the substance of God Jn.3:6 cannot be corrupted which is why we are not given a spirit at physical birth but only when we believe and believers are kept (alive) by God even though we sin because of the Cross.

yes, whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Everlasting life is everlasting life.

I appreciate you responses. It's obvious we are starting from very different understandings which, goes to prove @studier point about how confusion can arise in these discussions.

very nice discussing with you as well, sawdust. not sure that we have "very different understandings" ... not exactly the same, but not complete opposites.

hope/pray you have a nice peaceful sleep.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Can anyone give me scripture that talks about OSAS or the other way? I Am not sure what to believe, but I don't want to go against scripture.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

everlasting life is everlasting life
.

 

[Magenta]

Ecclesiastes 3 v 18-20 Man has no advantage over the animals.

 

[Magenta]

Can anyone give me scripture that talks about OSAS or the other way? I Am not sure what to believe, but I don't want to go against scripture.

John 6 v 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

 

[Magenta]

1 John 5 verses 11-13 + John 6 verse 47 ~ This is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[studier]

You're asking me to prove a negative? Why don't you prove the positive you allege?

First negative claim has the burden of proof.

I wonder if you can find it.

Typical shift and deflection of original burden.

All done.

 

[studier]

The other difference between Adam and the living creatures is that Adam was created in the image and likeness of God ... that was "God creating (bara) the human spirit".

What do you think happened with the human spirit at the fall?

 

[cv5]

Can anyone give me scripture that talks about OSAS or the other way? I Am not sure what to believe, but I don't want to go against scripture.

Take a listen to the first lecture "eternal security".

https://rbthieme.org/stream/specials/index.html?special=radio_archive&ref=radio_archive

I would absorb the whole series. And I would order them. All free of charge.

https://www.rbthieme.org/mp3audiospecials.html