Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[NightTwister]

470 pages of quoting verses back and forth on a topic that is something we shouldn't understand.

Deu 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

We do what God wants us to do, obey His word and He handles the election or lack there of

If God didn't want us to understand it, why did He write about it?

 

[Magenta]

470 pages of quoting verses back and forth on a topic that is something we shouldn't understand.

Deu 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

We do what God wants us to do, obey His word and He handles the election or lack there of

It is not difficult to understand that the unregenerated man is a slave to sin.

How this plays out in people's lives may be a bit more difficult to grasp.

But the fact that it is our worldly reality should not be. Still, people deny it.

It is understandable when worldly people deny Biblical facts, but not so much when so-called Christians do.

 

[sawdust]

But accepting the "Lord God and his word" is equally as eternal. The reason Christ didn't experience the lake of fire is because Death could NOT hold him! But this doesn't change the fact that in some way that none of us can completely understand (at least in this age) is that Christ did experience separation from his Father and I cannot even begin to imagine how that must have felt to Jesus. It's no wonder at all that He prayed in the garden to let the cup pass by Him...if possible.

You just don't seem to get it. It has nothing to do with power. Christ paid for our sin. The punishment must meet the crime. The punishment He suffered had a fixed time period, ergo the punishment lasted three hours and not forever. Therefore the death that resulted form sin was also fixed, in this instance within time and space. Dead in our sins (spiritual death) and physical death at which point there is judgement for the life we lived. And what is the life the Father looks for? The one lived by grace through faith.

However, the rejection of that same gracious act that took that punishment and the Lord who bore it? That is to to be punished forever. The lake of fire is far more than being cut off from God. People go through their whole lives and are completely unaware they are cut off from God but once those same people hit the lake of fire? They will most definitely know. The fire will continually burn away all the lies they used in this life to justify their evil and they will be tormented by it.

The wages of sin is not eternal death, aka the lake of fire.

 

[Rufus]

Prove it.

You're asking me to prove a negative? Why don't you prove the positive you allege?

 

[Rufus]

You just don't seem to get it. It has nothing to do with power. Christ paid for our sin. The punishment must meet the crime. The punishment He suffered had a fixed time period, ergo the punishment lasted three hours and not forever. Therefore the death that resulted form sin was also fixed, in this instance within time and space. Dead in our sins (spiritual death) and physical death at which point there is judgement for the life we lived. And what is the life the Father looks for? The one lived by grace through faith.

However, the rejection of that same gracious act that took that punishment and the Lord who bore it? That is to to be punished forever. The lake of fire is far more than being cut off from God. People go through their whole lives and are completely unaware they are cut off from God but once those same people hit the lake of fire? They will most definitely know. The fire will continually burn away all the lies they used in this life to justify their evil and they will be tormented by it.

The wages of sin is not eternal death, aka the lake of fire.

It has much to do with POWER. When mere mortals die, do we have the power to escape either the grave or our eternal destiny? And the wages of sin is ultimately eternal death. You have such a low view of God's holiness that you can't seem to understand that sin is infinitely offensive to God, thereby demanding an equally infintiely just sentence.

 

[cv5]

If God didn't want us to understand it, why did He write about it?

The more pertinent question on this thread is:
Why is it that the super-determinists do not?

I mean they stumble right out of the gate.......

[Jhn 3:16 KJV]
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[Jhn 3:17 KJV]
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

[Jhn 3:18 KJV]
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Rufus]

3? Nothing in the Bible about this. I have read it cover to cover

The concept is thoroughly biblical. God has three kinds of wills: Decretive, Dispositional and Preceptive. And example of each, respectively: God decreed all that he created; God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and does not willingly afflict punishment, and Preceptive refers to his revealed will for his moral creatures, e.g. the Law of Moses. Under the Decretive heading, there is a sub-category called His Permissive Will which some make a big deal out, trying to make a distinction between the two when there is no genuine difference. The Fall of mankind is often appealed to for this sub-category.

 

[Cameron143]

On that we can agree.

You have Christ paying a temporal punishment for what you class as an eternal crime.

If you had read carefully you would know that I said Christ paid an eternal punishment on the cross for those He saves. He is God.

When do you think Jesus paid for sin and how? Did He only pay a temporal punishment, or eternal?

 

[Mordy]

For all eternity, that means from the beginning of time and before the creation of the world, and all into the continuation of eternity, as we worship the Lord, our God forever and ever in his glory and in his joy. All of those who are obedient to him and who will bow their knee will live in his glory forever and ever. This happened because he paid for it by his perfect sacrifice and blood on the cross, which was the sacrifice for all time. However, our response is that as his sheep, we will also be offered on the altar. We are to be living sacrifices. The question is, how have you been or how have I been a living sacrifice for the Lord our God?

 

[Kroogz]

Not in the doctrinally accurate Biblical sense.

You nailed that.

 

[sawdust]

If you had read carefully you would know that I said Christ paid an eternal punishment on the cross for those He saves. He is God.

When do you think Jesus paid for sin and how? Did He only pay a temporal punishment, or eternal?

I read what you wrote. The effect of the Cross is eternal. If you understood what I wrote you would realise the wages of sin is death unto the grave, not the lake of fire. You keep wanting to take our crime beyond the punishment Christ took upon Himself.

You are simply wrong in that Christ's punishment was not eternal, if it were, He would still be under punishment.

 

[cv5]

You are simply wrong in that Christ's punishment was not eternal, if it were, He would still be under punishment.

Agree. Finite sins by finite creatures will never sum to infinity. Or even come close.

 

[cv5]

You nailed that.

Houston we have a problem....the Reformed TRADITION.

[Mat 15:8-9 KJV] 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

[Mar 7:9 KJV] 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

 

[Kroogz]

HIH clearly believes she has a mortal lock on what is fair and just.

Acts 17:31
For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”

Ps 98:9
Before the LORD; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity.

Ps 9:8
And He will judge the world in righteousness; He will execute judgment for the peoples fairly.

Equal privilege and equal opportunity.

Make sure and tell @Cameron143.

 

[cv5]

Acts 17:31
For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”

Ps 98:9
Before the LORD; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity.

Ps 9:8
And He will judge the world in righteousness; He will execute judgment for the peoples fairly.

Equal privilege and equal opportunity.

Make sure and tell @Cameron143.

God is not fair they declare. Over and over again. Unashamedly and with gusto.

Pretty crazy man.

 

[Mem]

God's familial, covenant love is not universal since his love is conditional in nature. God loves the righteous (Ps 146:8) and He loves those who love Him and keep his commandments (Jn 10:17; 14:21; 15:10; 16:27), etc., etc.

When we tell people that "God loves YOU", that could well be a very misleading statement (since we don't know who the elect are), given the conditional nature of his love. And it could even lead to serious consequences for the hearer if he believes that falsehood because he'll be under the impression that God loves him with all his spiritual warts, leprosy, uncleaness, etc. And since God loves me just as I am, then what incentive would the hearer have to want to change what he is and become something new instead? The love universalists actually do much harm to the gospel and to the hearer thereof.

I cannot bring myself in agreement that God's love is not universal or unconditional in nature. God loves the world, which includes the righteous and those who love Him and keep his commandments, yes. But God saves the righteous. because His salvation is, indeed, condition of, and only of, faith.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The gospel is heard as foolishness, no problem, let's believe it! Who do you know that chose to believe what they have decided is nonsense? They get around verses like 1 Cor 2:14 by rewriting them and saying the words do not mean what they say.

How can anyone believe this way? that verse alone should settle the debate and then to try to make some kind of loop hole? no one and I mean no one without being born again will accept the things of the spirit nor can any works of the flesh bare spiritual fruit no faith no love of God nothing

Surely there must be some kind of misunderstanding? it is pretty clear from scripture alone that the natural cannot comprehend the spiritual and that faith is a gift from God alone.

just an fyi, Blain ... I am one who does not believe 1 Cor 2:14 includes the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, which is the power of God unto salvation ... and this has been explained to Magenta more than a few of times.

1 Corinthians 1:

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

These verses do not state that those who are perishing cannot understand the message of the cross ... they do understand ... and they consider the message of the cross foolish. iow, they suppress the truth in unrighteousness due to holding man's wisdom (the wisdom of words – 1 Cor 1:17 or the wisdom of the wise – 1 Cor 1:19) above the wisdom of God.


1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

There is no indication in 1 Cor 1:18 that those who are perishing cannot know the gospel.

However, 1 Cor 2:14 states the deeper things of God referred to in 1 Cor 2:6-16 cannot be known by the natural man ... why? Because the natural man spoken of in 1 Cor 2:14 consists of:

1) those who are not born again ... they have not taken that first step which would allow them to know spiritual matters which go beyond the scope of the gospel; or

2) those who are born again but are immature in their walk with the Lord ... either because they are newly born again and need to feed on the milk of the word or they are carnal believers who follow men as opposed to maturing in the things of God ... these carnal believers also need to continue to feed on the milk of the word according to 1 Cor 3:1-4.

more info to follow concerning 1 Cor 2:14 and the context within which the verse sits ...
.

 

[Cameron143]

I read what you wrote. The effect of the Cross is eternal. If you understood what I wrote you would realise the wages of sin is death unto the grave, not the lake of fire. You keep wanting to take our crime beyond the punishment Christ took upon Himself.

You are simply wrong in that Christ's punishment was not eternal, if it were, He would still be under punishment.

If the punishment for our sins is eternal wrath, the payment for our sins must satisfy God's eternal wrath. On the cross, God poured out upon Jesus the equivalency of wrath that was required for every believer to be forgiven. Jesus, being God, eternal and omnipotent, bore the equivalency of eternal wrath for every believer. For us, being human, we cannot throughout eternity suffer the wrath that would satisfy God's anger. Jesus, being God, can suffer the wrath of the Father and satisfy our debt. He did so on the cross, and said so when He said...It is finished. At that point, God's anger was assuaged for all those who believe.

What do you believe happens to those who die unsaved?

 

[cv5]

I cannot bring myself in agreement that God's love is not universal or unconditional in nature. God loves the world, which includes the righteous and those who love Him and keep his commandments, yes. But God saves the righteous. because His salvation is, indeed, condition of, and only of, faith.

Somebody inform the Calvinists that God unconditionally loves Satan, the elder lost son.
Proven beyond a shadow of a doubt in Scripture. If you actually understand the content that is.

 

[Kroogz]

God is not fair they declare. Over and over again. Unashamedly and with gusto.

Pretty crazy man.

I agree.The calvies think God is "fair" by leaving 20%, 30%, 40%,50%? in their sins to FRY. And obviously , nothing can bring them off of their special perch.