On that we can agree.
You have Christ paying a temporal punishment for what you class as an eternal crime.
Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
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On that we can agree.
You have Christ paying a temporal punishment for what you class as an eternal crime.
Unless you think the lake of fire is not everlasting, then Christ did not experience the lake of fire. There is no release from there ergo, the punishment for our sin was temporal, not eternal. However the punishment for rejecting the Lord God and His word is eternal.
I have often thought that those who preach and teach are very special in that way. It must be difficult to watch a sinner remain unmoved over a long period of time, even though we understand that all things are in God's hands.
1 Corinthians 3 v 6-7 I planted the seed and Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God Who makes things grow.
Prove it! You didn't even want to read my posts on the Exodus typology because God's RESCUE MISSION to HELPLESS people doesn't square with your view of the New Covenant, the Gospel and human condition. Yet, the Redemption of Abraham's descendants by God is a graphic, picturesque portrayal of all the above -- even right down to the seemingly unimportant detail that Abraham's spiritual descendants (the large mixed multitude) were also rescued by God and left Egypt with the Hebrews! The Exodus narrative is nothing less than God sending Moses (a type of Christ IF you can believe even this much) into the "strong man's house" (i.e. Pharaoh a type of Satan) to plunder his possessions (Mat 12:29).
I have to think pastoring God's flock has to be the most challenging and toughest job on the planet, especially for those pastors who take to heart their shepherding responsibilities. Many pastors today seem to have little interest in shepherding. Nothing has changed over all these centuries. Israel, historically, had more than their share of bad shepherds and that is still true in today's Church.
470 pages of quoting verses back and forth on a topic that is something we shouldn't understand.
Deu 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
We do what God wants us to do, obey His word and He handles the election or lack there of
Deu 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
We do what God wants us to do, obey His word and He handles the election or lack there of
But accepting the "Lord God and his word" is equally as eternal. The reason Christ didn't experience the lake of fire is because Death could NOT hold him! But this doesn't change the fact that in some way that none of us can completely understand (at least in this age) is that Christ did experience separation from his Father and I cannot even begin to imagine how that must have felt to Jesus. It's no wonder at all that He prayed in the garden to let the cup pass by Him...if possible.
Gods plan of salvation is the worst kept secret of all time. Intentionally so.
Not only does He want everyone to know it, He wants everyone to have it.
And it is free for the asking. Anyone anywhere anytime. But you do have to want it, ask for it, then receive it.
[Rev 22:17 KJV]
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Well...if we can't understand the redemptive covenants, the gospel, the human condition, God's holy character and the three tiers of God's will, then what good is the rest of the bible going to do?
“Man has trouble understanding how 1) God is merciful and at the same time 2) God is just.
I must admit that this is a troubling concept for all men.”
“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
Luke 6:36-38 KJV
“For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy;
and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
James 2:13 KJV
Mercy together with justice not only mercy but mercy according to the measure we use
are we born again under the gospel of John? ... or are we born again under the gospel of the Christ which is the power of God unto salvation?
I believe another aspect we must keep in mind is that that this record occurred early on in the history of the church. While these "disciples" may have been considered believers under old covenant ... do old covenant believers automatically become born again believers under the new covenant ... without having had the gospel of Christ preached to them ?
My position is that a person is only born again once. At the time a person is born again, he or she is born again of Holy Spirit ... sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise until the day of redemption.Cameron143 said:
I showed you from Scripture that Paul had to teach the believers at Ephesus the gospel of Christ because they had been instructed only in John's gospel.
You believe they were born again believers ... I believe they were believers in John's gospel ...Cameron143 said:
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There can be no growth without a new heart that produces godly desires. And the last thing in this universe any unbeliever has are godly desires. Can't get such desires out of evil hearts.