Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Genez]

Can you tell us of a pastor teacher that is closer to what Paul taught? I would surely like to learn from him.

1 Cor 4:16
Therefore I urge you, be imitators of me.

RBT, for me, brings Paul to life.
I believe it takes a genius the explain a genius.

Some may not like me saying that.
But...

When I was in Bible college (years ago) we had a retired Professor teaching ancient languages.
He had been associated with Harvard during WW2. Brilliant man to say the least.

After hearing some recorded messages of classes he gave concerning Genesis, I became amazed to find out
what we can not find by simply reading translations done in English.

Soon after then I found myself sitting in front of him at church service.
I turned around, and in my enthusiasm told him how much I appreciated what he taught in that series.

You know what he told me?

"I got it from Thieme."
He mentioned that several times.

I was not too sure what he meant.
It was only later that I discovered what this Harvard professor was pointing me to.

God has provided for all our needs, for all of us who have needs.

 

[Genez]

And we see it on the cross as well. He was still physically alive when He said," It is finished."

That is the BINGO! moment that only those who understand spiritual death can understand.

He was our substitute in Spiritual death (he paid the price for ALL sin.)
His Physical death guaranteed our physical resurrection.

It's all intimately connected, if we are willing to grow in His Grace and knowledge.

Understanding spiritual death is essential if we are to grow up and mature in understanding what took place on the Cross.

 

[Mem]

So, the point is, what do we learn from Eph2:1-5 about Paul's meaning of "dead in violations"? And why does he then go into salvation, life, new creation in Christ and what is the depth of his eschatological thinking about all of this?

I appreciate the focus (this is not easy to achieve in here ).

I would summarize the excerpt from Eph 2 to be that, in violations, we are dead, and in Christ, we are made alive together with him, even while we are dead in violations, because of God's great love with which He, being rich in mercy, loved us.
When we were dead in violations. There are none alive who didn't follow the course of the world and the prince of the air, the spirit at work in the sons of disobedience which lived by nature, like the rest of mankind, in the passions of our flesh, as the children of wrath.
Paul concludes the passage with "by grace you have been saved," which implies no significant distinction of merit from the rest of the children of wrath, carrying out the desires of the body and mind. While we were yet going on the suggestion of the prince of the air to serve or own will, it was God's love that compelled His will to have mercy on us and "make" us alive together with Christ (a new creation that will never die).
So, there is no creation without Christ. There never was, is, nor will there ever be. He is the Life, so that only leaves death to follow.

 

[sawdust]

Do we have to take this metaphorical death into the human spirit being dead? Is the human spirit mentioned in these verses?

Does this metaphorical death sound like a corpse?

My question to that would be .. is it metaphorical? When God said to Adam "in the day you eat of the tree (to) die you will die?" was He being literal or metaphorical? Gen.2:17

The physical death we experience certainly isn't metaphorical and there are two deaths mentioned in that verse. That has to mean something, surely?

I have a hunch we may need to take this bit by bit and go slow so as not to lose anyone along the way.

 

[Magenta]

from Revelation 3 verse 17-18 ~ You say, ‘I need nothing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, white garments so that you may be clothed and your shameful nakedness not exposed, and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

 

[Mem]

He is the Life, so that only leaves death to follow.

Jesus is the Life so that, apart from Him, that only leaves death to follow.

I believe that qualifier was probably understood but I didn't want to leave any possibility for the suggestion of confusion.

 

[Kroogz]

I have a hunch we may need to take this bit by bit and go slow so as not to lose anyone along the way.

One bit would be....why the skins? If everything was still "status quo" why the change?

Intimate(in the cool of the day/they hid) fellowship was dead. This needed to be reconciled......Skins/Gospel of Christ.

 

[Kroogz]

from Revelation 3 verse 17-18 ~ You say, ‘I need nothing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, white garments so that you may be clothed and your shameful nakedness not exposed, and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

It is BELIEVERS who are being referenced in these verses.

If it was unbelievers? Guess what?

The GOSPEL would be proclaimed to them. That's just the way the Lord Is. He isn't willing that any should perish.

 

[sawdust]

One bit would be....why the skins? If everything was still "status quo" why the change?

Intimate(in the cool of the day/they hid) fellowship was dead. This needed to be reconciled......Skins/Gospel of Christ.

Interesting you should relate intimacy with the "cool of the day". Living in the tropics I would relate cool of the day with activity. It is when we become active again after the heat of the afternoon.

Also the word used is "ruach" which means wind, breath https://biblehub.com/hebrew/7307.htm

To me it is suggestive of God actively being the initiator (of salvation).

Food for thought maybe?

 

[sawdust]

I believe Adam was created (spirit), formed (body), made (soul):

Isaiah 43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Created = God brought into existence something that has never been in existence (something from nothing). Adam was created in the image of God (Gen 1:27).

Formed = God formed the body of Adam from the dust of the ground (Gen 2:7).

Made = God breathed into Adam the breath of life (plural) and man became a living soul (Gen 2:7).

There's a lot in your post so I would like to just start here but I don't have time right now and don't know if I will get back to it today and when I come here in the morning there are anywhere between 4-6 pages of posts to get through and I'm not sure I'm catching up with everything people say hence, I am making this post so I can easily find it again and respond. Bear with me please.

 

[sawdust]

We must remember death does not mean non-existent.

He isn't suggesting that.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

There's a lot in your post so I would like to just start here but I don't have time right now and don't know if I will get back to it today and when I come here in the morning there are anywhere between 4-6 pages of posts to get through and I'm not sure I'm catching up with everything people say hence, I am making this post so I can easily find it again and respond. Bear with me please.

okey dokey ... and I knew I packed a lot in a single post ... and apologies to @Cameron143 for blowing up his cellphone ...
.

 

[HeIsHere]

He isn't suggesting that.

Some people do.

 

[BillyBob]

He isn't willing that any should perish.

Please explain or clarify. Since some have perished and some continue down that path, does that mean that some are beyond His ability to save? That He who can make an axe head swim, does not have the power to save all people and cannot bring some to faith – even though He isn't willing that any should perish?

 

[Rufus]

studier said:


So, I've been asking what "spiritual death" means and includes and doesn't include.

Spiritual death = separation from God who is the Author of Life. Do you at least agree that both physical and spiritual death have at bare minimum one parallel: The former = separation of soul from the body; the latter = separation from God's life? Of course, you will want to know what the latter means, right? In time, I'll get to that because right now I'm rethinking (thanks in part to Magenta) how exactly Adam died on the day he disobeyed. But meanwhile, I have a question for you to ponder. In the New Eternal Order, will either death exist any longer or will all death finally cease? Will both types of death finally be conquered forever? If you think both types will be eternally abolished in the restored heavens and earth, what do you think will primary account for such a radical change? I would suggest some serious meditation on Rev 21 and Gen 3 to come up with a reasonable answer to this last question.

One more thing I will add. Physical death occurs when the soul separates from the body because it's the soul that animates the body. Spiritual death occurs because the sinner is separated from the all powerful Presence of the God of Life which leaves a dark spiritual vacuum in a person's soul and heart.

I need to do some homework on how Adam died and then we can resume this discussion.

Magenta, my dear sister, I know you always have disagreed with my previous explanation about how spiritual death occurred in the Garden after the Fall, and I think I'm beginning to agree with you. I might have carelessly broken one of my own cardinal rules of hermeneutics which is to view and understand all progressive revelation through the lens of the Eternal New Covenant, since the NT is concealed in the OT and the OT is more fully revealed in the NT. This is why I never arbitrarily or capriciously read the OT back into the New! I allow the NT writers to use the OT scriptures according to their New Covenant perspective and purpose to their NC audience, since this covenant radically differs from the Old Covenant.

Anyhoo...stay tuned until I do some more homework.

 

[BillyBob]

Anyhoo...stay tuned until I do some more homework.

Should be interesting!

 

[Kroogz]

Please explain or clarify.

Freewill.

God's freewill and mankind's freewill coexist.

 

[Rufus]

Please explain or clarify. Since some have perished and some continue down that path, does that mean that some are beyond His ability to save? That He who can make an axe head swim, does not have the power to save all people and cannot bring some to faith – even though He isn't willing that any should perish?

AND...couple 2Pet 3:9 and 1Tim 2:4 with Jn 3:17, and we're left with a very messy, disastrous salvation that got totally out of control because God's supposed eternal purpose in saving all men w/o exception has for the most part been frustrated and thwarted since the vast majority of mankind is and has been hell-bound. God's grace is far more effective in producing negative effects upon sinners' hearts than positive ones.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Spiritual death occurs because the sinner is separated from the all powerful Presence of the God of Life which leaves a dark spiritual vacuum in a person's soul and heart.

while there is a separation from God ... it is quite clear in Scripture that God continued (and continues to this day) to interact with those from whom He was/is separated ... the interaction between God and man became remote as opposed to intimate ... external physical revealing as opposed to internal spiritual revealing ... point being that the means of communication changed ... the communication did not become non-existent ...
.

 

[BillyBob]

Freewill.

God's freewill and mankind's freewill coexist.

You have just demonstrated why it is impossible for us to have a decent discussion! I asked a simply question there were no strings attached.
I personally believe that the statement that “He isn't willing that any should perish” sort of goes along with the statement that “He takes no pleasure” in the fact that some will perish”.