Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[fredoheaven]

Hebrews 2:3 KJV — How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

Salvation can be neglected, either intentionally or not. Its a matter of responding or not at all. Believe to life everlasting and not to believe is condemnation.

 

[Jackson129]

If someone can explain these verses and verse similar to this like Colossians 1:23 and all the warning passages and passages about falling away and all the 'if' verses I will embrace the TULIP right now.

Not a joke challenge.

Why does the Bible say 'if' so many times and have so many exhortations to
-not become apostate
-to not let any bitterness spring up in your hearts
-persevere in the faith
-many if statements.

Do the calvinists have a good response to these? I can understand and appreciate what they are saying. Glory to God alone in salvation. But what about these?

I mean why even have a bible at all right? If you are either damed for all eternity or saved for all eternity before you were even born. God would just will you into believing if you are of the elect. Why even have a bible you would just magically come to God by his will. All the billions of bibles printed in every language are just for what show? It makes no sense to me why people think man's responsibility is not part of the equation.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Don't you know that Perseverance comes by God's grace, as well? Salvation is ultimately God's supernatural work that He began and He will finish (Phil 1:6).

What do you think the Good Shepherd is doing in the lives of the sheep the Father has given to Him: Sleeping at the switch? Is Jesus just another hierling shepherd who has no love for his own and just lets them wander off anywhere they want? None of the Father's sheep would be saved if it weren't for the Shepherd's watchful eye, since dumb sheep are strongly inclined to stray. Read the Parable of the Lost Sheep some day.

Um no

God keeps us we do not keep ourselves. we cannot persevere to the end, because no matter how good we are. we still do not add up

But nice try..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

So what does Adam's humanity have to do with him having empirical evidence for God's existence?

I have no idea what this even means. are you trying to trip me up or something?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Adam walked with God in the garden of eden. He's seen God

yes.

But did he see the angel of God Like Abraham did.

or did he see God as god was.. remember, We are told if we see God we would die where we stand

 

[Jackson129]

yes.

But did he see the angel of God Like Abraham did.

or did he see God as god was.. remember, We are told if we see God we would die where we stand

Because we are in a sinful state. Before Adam sinned he was not. Now God did give them cloths and curse them on thier way out. How they saw God at that moment I dont know. It said God called to Adam after he sinned so my thinking is at that point he was separated from the 2.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Because we are in a sinful state. Before Adam sinned he was not. Now God did give them cloths and curse them on thier way out. How they saw God at that moment I dont know. It said God called to Adam after he sinned so my thinking is at that point he was separated from the 2.

I do not believe they saw God as the angels see God..

let alone, they did not know God and live in the heavenly helm with him for so many years..

there is a reason God did not offer them forgiveness

 

[Jackson129]

I do not believe they saw God as the angels see God..

let alone, they did not know God and live in the heavenly helm with him for so many years..

there is a reason God did not offer them forgiveness

I do not know what you mean with the last two statements.

 

[cv5]

Don't you know that Perseverance comes by God's grace, as well? Salvation is ultimately God's supernatural work that He began and He will finish (Phil 1:6).

What do you think the Good Shepherd is doing in the lives of the sheep the Father has given to Him: Sleeping at the switch? Is Jesus just another hierling shepherd who has no love for his own and just lets them wander off anywhere they want? None of the Father's sheep would be saved if it weren't for the Shepherd's watchful eye, since dumb sheep are strongly inclined to stray. Read the Parable of the Lost Sheep some day.

The Shepherd would not be good if He refused to hear sincere pleas for mercy.
Such as the Canaanite woman with the demon possessed daughter. Or blind men or lepers.

All who ask receive salvation. Without exception. Or His glory is impugned.

 

[cv5]

and curse them on thier way out.

False. God cursed Satan and the GROUND. Adam and the Woman were NOT cursed.

Both curses were for Adam's SAKE....both acts of mercy.

 

[sawdust]

look up the word for foreknowledge, God knows His elect prior to the foundation of the world.

Once again, it is back to front. No-one is elected before God knows them so He is not foreknowing the Elected. You have Election before Foreknowledge. God knows believers and elected believers to a particular place in His plan of salvation. You and I have been elected to be sanctified by His Spirit. Israel was elected to obedience to the Law. Prior to Israel, people worked out their salvation based on conscience.

everything that can be known. God did not choose us based on foreseen faith. that is not true. that would mean we elect ourselves and then God chooses those who choose Him.

Romans 9:15-16 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

You think that because you think God chose who to save and who not to save rather than understanding the doctrine of election is about God choosing how believers would work out their salvation, a salvation given to believers. (whosoever believes, not whosoever is elected)
As far as I am concerned it is not foreseen faith as faith is a gift from God that comes from the word, our believing (which I have repeated ad nauseum) is not saving faith.

Paul is talking about the establishment of the nation of Israel. Abraham is the father of many nations but to establish one nation, God choose Isaac over Ishmael, Jacob over Esau. Nothing to do with the will of man which is generally the case when it comes to establishing nations. Israel is the only nation formed directly by God, all others have come about by the hands of men. Yet even so, God will determine which nation rises according to His plan to reveal His power as He did with Pharaoh.

And just so you know, God has mercy on all men because God is merciful. That certain people will end up in the Lake of Fire is not the result of a lack of mercy on God's part.

i just believe what the bible says,

We all do.

 

[BillyBob]

I thought that verse was Jesus talking with the apostles. Saying to them it has been granted. Not all believers. Because they were the ones who were gonna have to go spread the word and needed the most knowledge to explain it properly. Just like there are archangels and powers and dominions. The apostles were a special brand of Christian. As no Man today meets that criteria yet we are still Christians.

The verse that I posted was to demonstrate that God does indeed treat individuals differently.
Deut 7:6
“For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth.

Eph 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

All through scripture God chooses a people to be His. Why then, would He all of a sudden leave it entirely up to man to choose or reject Him? Is it simply to give all men an equal chance? That is a absurd thought!

Who is man to tell God what He must do?

 

[Jackson129]

False. God cursed Satan and the GROUND. Adam and the Woman were NOT cursed.

Both curses were for Adam's SAKE....both acts of mercy.

One was cursed with having to work by the sweat of his brow one was cursed with the pains of child birth.

Gen 3-16 unto the woman he said I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thy shall bring forth childern; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Gen 3-17 and unto Adam he said, because thou has hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, though shall not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shall though eat of it all the days of thy life.

Gen 3-18 thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and though shall eat the herb of the field.

Gen 3-19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till though return to the ground; for out of it wast though taken; for dust though art, and unto dust thou shall return.

That aint exactly a blessing.

 

[Jackson129]

The verse that I posted was to demonstrate that God does indeed treat individuals differently.
Deut 7:6
“For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth.

Eph 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

All through scripture God chooses a people to be His. Why then, would He all of a sudden leave it entirely up to man to choose or reject Him? Is it simply to give all men an equal chance? That is a absurd thought!

Who is man to tell God what He must do?

God gave us the ability to accept his grace or deny it how does that mean man is telling God what to do?

 

[Mem]

Thanks! I agree with your seeing the association of human will.

The interesting thing about apeitheia is it also has a primary meaning of and can just as easily be translated as "disobedience". In Hebrews see also Heb3:18; Heb4:11; Heb11:31. If we track it around, we're hard-pressed not to see this as "disobedience" and we can see one of the ways belief and obedience are so closely linked in Scripture.

If the (new) commandments given gave were simply only to, "Believe on the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another (1John3:23)," then unbelieving is disobedience. And indeed, Jesus Himself said that all the commandments of Moses hang on these two (Matthew22:40 and Mark12:29-31).

 

[sawdust]

Question: How do you read Paul's prayer for the salvation of Israel in Rom10:1?

Doesn't the continuing context reveal that his prayer includes his understanding that the necessity of choosing to believe Jesus is Messiah underlies his prayer? IOW, if we pray for the salvation of all men with the understanding that this means we're praying that all men believe Jesus is the Christ, aren't we praying according to God's will and likely even His good pleasure?

One of the interesting things to me about Rom10:1 is that Paul doesn't say it's his will that Israel be saved, rather he uses a word that means good pleasure and he ties it to his heart. It's the same word at times attributed to God's good pleasure and the same word proclaimed by the angelic host at Christ's first advent Luke2:14.

Thanks for raising this. It should be clarified. When I pray the things I stated in the other post, I am in effect praying for their salvation, I'm simply not praying "God make them believe". I have a discussion in real life with a sister of mine who always wants to pray "make them believe God" and I always say you can't do that because you are violating their freedom to choose. The interesting response she gives is "it's my Calvinist background coming out".

Make of it what you will. I'm still learning about prayer and to be honest my most common prayer is "be merciful Lord, I'm just a dumb, know nothing kid".

What I want is to wrap my arms around the whole universe and everything in it and bring it into the Kingdom of God but what I can do and, more importantly what I see the Lord God do, is not what we want (He wants all men to be saved 1Tim.2:4 ), but what is right.

I always taught my children you can't always have what you want, it is better to do what's right than get your own way.

God made us to be free, can we violate that freedom, even in our fallen state, and consider we have done right?

Don't know if that has answered your question but not sure what else to say.

 

[Mem]

One was cursed with having to work by the sweat of his brow one was cursed with the pains of child birth.

Gen 3-16 unto the woman he said I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thy shall bring forth childern; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Gen 3-17 and unto Adam he said, because thou has hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, though shall not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shall though eat of it all the days of thy life.

Gen 3-18 thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and though shall eat the herb of the field.

Gen 3-19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till though return to the ground; for out of it wast though taken; for dust though art, and unto dust thou shall return.

That aint exactly a blessing.

Landing in the water after you jump off a bridge isn't exactly a curse, especially if someone tells you that you're going to end up in the water.

 

[cv5]

One was cursed with having to work by the sweat of his brow one was cursed with the pains of child birth.

Gen 3-16 unto the woman he said I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thy shall bring forth childern; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Gen 3-17 and unto Adam he said, because thou has hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, though shall not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shall though eat of it all the days of thy life.

Gen 3-18 thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and though shall eat the herb of the field.

Gen 3-19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till though return to the ground; for out of it wast though taken; for dust though art, and unto dust thou shall return.

That aint exactly a blessing.

No. By God's standard "cursed" is not what you think it means.

When a person is "cursed" it means condemnation to eternal death. Satan got actually "cursed", the GROUND (thornes hardships) was cursed for Adam's SAKE.....an act of mercy.

BTW, Adam and the Woman were both SAVED by God in Genesis 3.....covered by the blood because both rightly confessed at the trial.

[Gen 3:17 KJV] 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;


[Gen 3:14 KJV] 14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

[Gen 4:11 KJV] 11 And now [art] thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;

[Gen 5:29 KJV] 29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This [same] shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.

 

[studier]

Yes, and every sparrow.

Excellent!

 

[Jackson129]

No. By God's standard "cursed" is not what you think it means.

When a person is "cursed" it means condemnation to eternal death. Satan got actually "cursed", the GROUND (thornes hardships) was cursed for Adam's SAKE.....an act of mercy.

BTW, Adam and the Woman were both SAVED by God in Genesis 3.....covered by the blood because both rightly confessed at the trial.

[Gen 3:17 KJV] 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;


[Gen 3:14 KJV] 14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

[Gen 4:11 KJV] 11 And now [art] thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;

[Gen 5:29 KJV] 29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This [same] shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.

I can see where you are comming from on that. I dont count it as a blessing compared to other blessing in the Bible. Your childern will become a great nation. You will have a heir on the throne forever in my sight ect ect. So I didnt consider that a blessing. I guess I dont know what you mean by eternal death. I know eternal life is where believers go. I see being judged to the lake of fire as eternal death. The separation from God for all eternity. I dont see being cursed as that exact same thing. Ham got cursed but im sure there are saved decendets of Ham.