Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

so we must persevere. and in the end save ourselves?

God it

Don't you know that Perseverance comes by God's grace, as well? Salvation is ultimately God's supernatural work that He began and He will finish (Phil 1:6).

What do you think the Good Shepherd is doing in the lives of the sheep the Father has given to Him: Sleeping at the switch? Is Jesus just another hierling shepherd who has no love for his own and just lets them wander off anywhere they want? None of the Father's sheep would be saved if it weren't for the Shepherd's watchful eye, since dumb sheep are strongly inclined to stray. Read the Parable of the Lost Sheep some day.

 

[Rufus]

7. Romans 2:11 teaches that “God does not show favoritism” (cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17), which is how God judges people justly,
so the fact that some sinners ignore God’s Gospel indicates that His will or leading is resistible because of MFW.

You have never answered my question re your inane argument of "favoritism". On what basis could God play favorites, since all men are sinners? So...we're getting back to the old, tired, worn out FW saw of EQUALITY, which I showed recently does not square with Special Revelation or Natural Revelation (see my 3629 and 3739).

Also, if God's grace can be resisted by His elect, then God is a liar since no one can thwart God's plan or purpose (Gen 18:14; Job 42:2; Isa 43:13) and Jesus is a liar as well (Mk 10:27).

Further, only people who have not had their hearts circumcised by the Lord can resist His will (Act 7:51) since God never did the necessary heart work within them.

So...answer the question already that I have bolded above and have been seeking an intelligent answer from you for quite a while now.

 

[Cameron143]

Don't you know that Perseverance comes by God's grace, as well? Salvation is ultimately God's supernatural work that He began and He will finish (Phil 1:6).

What do you think the Good Shepherd is doing in the lives of the sheep the Father has given to Him: Sleeping at the switch? Is Jesus just another hierling shepherd who has no love for his own and just lets them wander off anywhere they want? None of the Father's sheep would be saved if it weren't for the Shepherd's watchful eye, since dumb sheep are strongly inclined to stray. Read the Parable of the Lost Sheep some day.

Excellent thoughts about the Good Shepherd.

 

[lrs68]

Matt 13:11 Jesus answered them His disciples, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted"
Seems like He does chose some and not others!

Why don't you read the reason why they are not able to know in the following Verses that explains it is a fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy that is confirmed in this passage by Jesus and later in Paul's Letters?

It looks like selective Verse [(Cherry Picking)] to proclaim a doctrine.

Have you ever wondered if you need to remove a Verse that is part of a different meaning in order to make it become a new meaning it probably means the doctrine is wrong?

 

[Rufus]

Adam is human..

do you realise a human much different than a demon who has seen God face to face. and known him for as long as they have been alive?

So what does Adam's humanity have to do with him having empirical evidence for God's existence?

 

[Cameron143]

Why don't you read the reason why they are not able to know in the following Verses that explains it is a fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy that is confirmed in this passage by Jesus and later in Paul's Letters?

It looks like selective Verse [(Cherry Picking)] to proclaim a doctrine.

Have you ever wondered if you need to remove a Verse that is part of a different meaning in order to make it become a new meaning it probably means the doctrine is wrong?

The fulfilling of a prophecy does tell us the prophecy wasn't about us; however, that doesn't preclude application on a wider basis. It has been given to Christians to understand the mysteries of the kingdom.

 

[Jackson129]

Matt 13:11 Jesus answered them His disciples, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted"
Seems like He does chose some and not others!

I thought that verse was Jesus talking with the apostles. Saying to them it has been granted. Not all believers. Because they were the ones who were gonna have to go spread the word and needed the most knowledge to explain it properly. Just like there are archangels and powers and dominions. The apostles were a special brand of Christian. As no Man today meets that criteria yet we are still Christians.

 

[Jackson129]

Adam is human..

do you realise a human much different than a demon who has seen God face to face. and known him for as long as they have been alive?

Adam walked with God in the garden of eden. He's seen God

 

[lrs68]

The fulfilling of a prophecy does tell us the prophecy wasn't about us; however, that doesn't preclude application on a wider basis. It has been given to Christians to understand the mysteries of the kingdom.

As much as I agree with you we both know this was concerning the Jews during the days Jesus walked the earth.

 

[Rufus]

Why don't you read the reason why they are not able to know in the following Verses that explains it is a fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy that is confirmed in this passage by Jesus and later in Paul's Letters?

It looks like selective Verse [(Cherry Picking)] to proclaim a doctrine.

Have you ever wondered if you need to remove a Verse that is part of a different meaning in order to make it become a new meaning it probably means the doctrine is wrong?

Your answer BEGS the question big time! I thought God wants to save each and every human being on the planet? How is He going to do that if He doesn't grant all hearers of the gospel the grace to believe?

 

[Cameron143]

As much as I agree with you we both know this was concerning the Jews during the days Jesus walked the earth.

The prophecy finds its fulfillment in the first century, but its application remains.

 

[Rufus]

Adam walked with God in the garden of eden. He's seen God

And that puts him in the same class as angles who also saw God! In fact, in my 15-pt. argument for God passing over Adam after he sinned, I wrote this back in Novemeber of last year on another thread:

13. Adam, like the angels, had direct empirical evidence for God's existence, as God directly communicated with him, communed with him, brought the animals to him and created Eve from his side. Since God chose to not provide any salvific remedy for the fallen angels who had this kind of direct knowledge, Adam's salvation, under these circumstances, would be unprecedented in scripture.

And I don't do unprecedented in scripture! Rather, I subscribe to the biblicaal principle that any given truth must be supported by at least one or two more closely related truths, i.e. every FACT must have the witness of at least two passages in scripture.

 

[Jackson129]

And that puts him in the same class as angles who also saw God! In fact, in my 15-pt. argument for God passing over Adam after he sinned, I wrote this back in Novemeber of last year on another thread:

13. Adam, like the angels, had direct empirical evidence for God's existence, as God directly communicated with him, communed with him, brought the animals to him and created Eve from his side. Since God chose to not provide any salvific remedy for the fallen angels who had this kind of direct knowledge, Adam's salvation, under these circumstances, would be unprecedented in scripture.

And I don't do unprecedented in scripture! Rather, I subscribe to the biblicaal principle that any given truth must be supported by at least one or two more closely related truths, i.e. every FACT must have the witness of at least two passages in scripture.

He created man a little lower than the angels. I see a child vs adult analogy there. The angles knew good from evil (it was used in the temptation) where as Adam did not until he sinned that first time. So God could not punish Adam the same way as the angles and be just.

 

[Rufus]

I thought that verse was Jesus talking with the apostles. Saying to them it has been granted. Not all believers. Because they were the ones who were gonna have to go spread the word and needed the most knowledge to explain it properly. Just like there are archangels and powers and dominions. The apostles were a special brand of Christian. As no Man today meets that criteria yet we are still Christians.

Context doesn't mean very much to you, does it? We're supposed to believe that the large crowds that drew around Jesus were all believers (Mat 13:2)?

And who exactly were the "people" in the disciples' question (Mat 13:10)? They were all believers or are they same people in v. 2?

And who was "them" in Jesus' reply (vv. 11, 13)?

Finally, your reply relegates all parables to the junk pile as far as the lowly, rank and file believers are concerned! If parables only applied only to the 12, then why should any of us low life believers waste our time reading parables?

 

[Rufus]

He created man a little lower than the angels. I see a child vs adult analogy there. The angles knew good from evil (it was used in the temptation) where as Adam did not until he sinned that first time. So God could not punish Adam the same way as the angles and be just.

Did the angels have the knowledge of good and evil before they sinned?

Also, are you saying that God would be unjust by eternally condemning Adam for his sin? On what basis would God be unjust? Did He not predict Adam's fall? God would certainly be UNJUST if he didn't give Adam what he deserved. But you appear to be saying Adam was entitled to God's saving grace! How so? With that kind of mentality, you must be a liberal.

 

[GWH]

Sounds like something I would believe.

The sufficient freedom you talked about I believe comes from Titus 2:11-12 which reads:


For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age

Yes, and because of other TOP, we know that "bringing" means "offering", which all men are free to accept or reject,
and which rejection by most Jews saddened (Romans 11) and frustrated (Acts 28:26-27) Paul as well as God.

Titus 2:12 also teaches that although men may accept/receive the proffered salvation by repenting and believing in Jesus
as Messiah/Christ and Lord, genuine faith precedes/produces loving/good/godly works (cf. Eph. 2:8-10).

 

[Jackson129]

Context doesn't mean very much to you, does it? We're supposed to believe that the large crowds that drew around Jesus were all believers (Mat 13:2)?

And who exactly were the "people" in the disciples' question (Mat 13:10)? They were all believers or are they same people in v. 2?

And who was "them" in Jesus' reply (vv. 11, 13)?

Finally, your reply relegates all parables to the junk pile as far as the lowly, rank and file believers are concerned! If parables only applied only to the 12, then why should any of us low life believers waste our time reading parables?

Mat 13-10 and the disciples (the 12) came and said unto him and said why speakest though to them (the crowds) in parables?

Mat 13-11 He awnserd and said unto them (the ones who asked the 12) because it is givin unto you (the 12 again) the know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven but to them (the crowds) it is not givin.

This isint that hard for to understand in my opinion.

There are mysteries of God that you and I aint privy to.

 

[GWH]

So all mankind w/o exception is known by God?

Yes, and every sparrow.

 

[Jackson129]

Did the angels have the knowledge of good and evil before they sinned?

Also, are you saying that God would be unjust by eternally condemning Adam for his sin? On what basis would God be unjust? Did He not predict Adam's fall? God would certainly be UNJUST if he didn't give Adam what he deserved. But you appear to be saying Adam was entitled to God's saving grace! How so? With that kind of mentality, you must be a liberal.

The Bible dosent say if angles where privy to that information before they sinned. So as long as we want to make stuff up how do you know the angles didnt go though exactly what we are right now. In some long lost time before creation. How do we know that them being created higher than us dosent mean they were created with the knowledge of good and evil unlike Adam who wasent and thus held to a higher standard.

When a 2 year old finds a gun and shoots someone we dont throw them in prison for life. When an adult grabs a gun and shoots someone we do. Can you comprehend why that is and apply it to a new creation vs one that has been around since the beginning of creation.

 

[Komentaja]

2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.


2 Cor 5:19-20 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.

If someone can explain these verses and verse similar to this like Colossians 1:23 and all the warning passages and passages about falling away and all the 'if' verses I will embrace the TULIP right now.

Not a joke challenge.

Why does the Bible say 'if' so many times and have so many exhortations to
-not become apostate
-to not let any bitterness spring up in your hearts
-persevere in the faith
-many if statements.

Do the calvinists have a good response to these? I can understand and appreciate what they are saying. Glory to God alone in salvation. But what about these?