Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Blain]

About 20 pages back i presented this very scenario plus a page or 2 back the Moses scenario

If both of us thought of this very scenario maybe God is trying to say something
hmm... perhaps he is using us to speak to others?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Of course they originate in God. It is written that man learns of God through nature, and Christ said that all who learn of the father come to Christ. That learning comes from the holy spirit. So when any person does a good deed it is coming from the holy spirit of truth that witnesses in their heart that it pleases God.

true but they have to be adopted into the light first.

 

[Rufus]

I know the group who adhere to "pre-selection" believe this.

And for good biblical reasons they "believe this".

 

[Rufus]

They can't be in a state of unbelief unless they first have something to not believe ergo, God always initiates with grace and truth and the Devil follows closely behind with his "brand of truth". I strongly suspect many people have forgotten or were completely unaware of their first encounter with the Lord because they were very young. But He is there from the get go. The Spirit is in the world convincing people of righteousness, sin and judgment. Needless to say, the Devil's doing his own version of convincing as well.

Did the devil change your heart to not believe or did you decide that for yourself? You came into this world knowing neither truth nor lies, you heard both from somewhere. If the "devil didn't make you do it", why would you think God made you believe the truth? Why is it so hard to accept your decisions between truth and error are your decisions? It doesn't in anyway take away from God's power or glory as it was by means of His grace and mercy you heard the truth in the first place and it was His power that saved you based on His own determination to save believers. It was His design that gave you the capacity to use your will for limited self determination.

God has never given our volition the power to create reality so how could our volition be responsible for changing our reality simply because we use it as God tells us to do? "repent and believe", "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" "choose you this day" etc. You weren't living in a coma all your life until the Gospel suddenly sprang into your heart. You have been making decisions for and against the Lord all your life.

The people OF this world have always been filled with "faith" -- faith in any object but the one true God who they hate.

 

[Rufus]

Certainly, the demons believe that God EXISTS. They surely saw His face many times before they fell.

However, they do NOT believe what God SAYS about Himself or what He is intending to do, nor do they believe that He is Good.

Belief in existence evidently falls short. Very short.

[Heb 11:6 KJV]
But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Why is it that these demons, who certainly are not atheistic as you have correctly implied, don't ever repent and believe the gospel?

However I disagree with what you wrote that I bolded in red. If Satan didn't believe that Christ was the Son of God and Good, why would he have tempted Christ to get Him to sin -- to become evil? Didn't the evil one tempt the woman after God proclaimed that all his creation was "very good"?

Also, the demons know full well what their eternal destiny is (Mat 8:29), AND the demons knew full well who Jesus was and that he had the power to do the very thing they feared.

So again...with all this knowledge they have, why don't the demons repent and believe the gospel?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Heb4:1 Let’s fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into his rest. 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, even as they also did, but the word they heard didn’t profit them, because it wasn’t mixed with faith by those who heard.

right ... the word was spoken ... the word was heard ... those who failed to enter into rest did not believe what was heard ... they suppressed the truth in unrighteousness and received the consequence of their action.

see also Hebrews 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief

"unbelief" is translated from the Greek word apeítheia which means someone not persuaded, referring to their willful unbelief, i.e. the refusal to be convinced by God's voice. This is the core-meaning of the entire word-family: 543 (apeítheia), 544 (apeithéō), 545 (apeithḗs). All these cognates focus on man's decision to reject God's offers of faith, i.e. refusal to be persuaded in their heart concerning obeying His will (Word) - HELPS Word-studies

(@Jackson129 - sorry, just had to do it!!! )

thanks for the info ...
rdbd (aka "et al.")
.

 

[Rufus]

Who made the final decision

Jesus said he will be raised so all who believes will neve rperish

who determines the salvation of the person even if they believe

God or the person?

Thank you for your honesty. At least you had the backbone to speak candidly. FWers must believe that their own volition is the primary and efficacious cause of their salvation, which I have often stated on this thread and others.

 

[Rufus]

I saw someone bring up the wayside seed parable. I mentioned it once on another thread I think.

The hard liners here say there is only the elect or the not elect. That covers seed 1 and seed 4. How about the middle two seeds. The Bible states they rejoiced in the word and grew in the word. How be it for a short time before the root died and the cares of the world chocked them out.

So obviously the middle two seeds are not of the elect. They eventually die in thier unbelief. So how then did those two examples of the non elect rejoice in the word and even grow in the word if it is all nonsense to them? According to some in here it is simply impossible for a non chosen to even comprend or rejoice in the word.

The first three seeds are not God's elect. There's only one seed who was and bore good fruit that came from a good heart -- a new, changed heart that is unilaterally promised in the New Covenant.

 

[Slimsumo]

Thank you for your honesty. At least you had the backbone to speak candidly. FWers must believe that their own volition is the primary and efficacious cause of their salvation, which I have often stated on this thread and others.

If you are drowning and you are thrown a rope, will you brag that you grabbed the rope and saved yourself? You will not. The credit goes to the one who gave you the rope.

So again...with all this knowledge they have, why don't the demons repent and believe the gospel?

Because Jesus did not die for angels, He died for people

 

[cv5]

If both of us thought of this very scenario maybe God is trying to say something
hmm... perhaps he is using us to speak to others?

Rom 15:4
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

If Satan didn't believe that Christ was the Son of God and Good, why would he have tempted Christ to get Him to sin -- to become evil? Didn't the evil one tempt the woman after God proclaimed that all his creation was "very good"?

think about it, Rufus ... Adam and Eve originally had dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth (Gen 1:26).

In Luke 4, the devil stated that all this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me (Luke 4:6) ... the dominion God initially conferred to Adam and Eve was delivered to the devil when Adam and Eve sinned.

can you imagine what would have been "delivered" to the devil ??? ... yikes!!! ... and tbh ... the Lord Jesus Christ was incapable of sinning ... perhaps the devil did not know ???
.

 

[Rufus]

Hakawaka said:


Why pray to God for someones salvation? Its already been predetermined before the foundation of the world, you praying for it wont make a difference anyway.

You have it all backwards and that's because of your low view of God. I asked this very question a few months ago of FWers! After, all why would any self-respecting FWer pray to God for anyone's salvation since there's zero efficacy in God's grace? It would be a waste of time. Therefore, all the efficacy MUST be in man's will who decided to take advantage of "opportunity" that God offers.

Also, the elect, as God's servants, have been appointed by God to participate in His redemptive plan, which means God has not only "predetermined" ends but also the means to those ends, such as preaching the gospel, prayer for the lost, etc.

 

[studier]

right ... the word was spoken ... the word was heard ... those who failed to enter into rest did not believe what was heard ... they suppressed the truth in unrighteousness and received the consequence of their action.

see also Hebrews 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief

"unbelief" is translated from the Greek word apeítheia which means someone not persuaded, referring to their willful unbelief, i.e. the refusal to be convinced by God's voice. This is the core-meaning of the entire word-family: 543 (apeítheia), 544 (apeithéō), 545 (apeithḗs). All these cognates focus on man's decision to reject God's offers of faith, i.e. refusal to be persuaded in their heart concerning obeying His will (Word) - HELPS Word-studies

(@Jackson129 - sorry, just had to do it!!! )

thanks for the info ...
rdbd (aka "et al.")
.

Thanks! I agree with your seeing the association of human will.

The interesting thing about apeitheia is it also has a primary meaning of and can just as easily be translated as "disobedience". In Hebrews see also Heb3:18; Heb4:11; Heb11:31. If we track it around, we're hard-pressed not to see this as "disobedience" and we can see one of the ways belief and obedience are so closely linked in Scripture.

 

[Rufus]

No

I believe That God offered to change me, by offering me his gift. so he did all the work necessary to bring out that change of heart and mind and call out to him like the tax collector did


Andf you believe God forced you to recieve him (I know you would deny it. but if you did not have free will to chose to say yes or no. then in reality, God forced you)

Is that what the Good Samaritan did with the half-dead crime victim? The GS "forced" himself upon the man?

 

[cv5]

Why is it that these demons, who certainly are not atheistic as you have correctly implied, don't ever repent and believe the gospel?

However I disagree with what you wrote that I bolded in red. If Satan didn't believe that Christ was the Son of God and Good, why would he have tempted Christ to get Him to sin -- to become evil? Didn't the evil one tempt the woman after God proclaimed that all his creation was "very good"?

Also, the demons know full well what their eternal destiny is (Mat 8:29), AND the demons knew full well who Jesus was and that he had the power to do the very thing they feared.

So again...with all this knowledge they have, why don't the demons repent and believe the gospel?

Because Satan was trying (and failing) to pull a similar stunt there as he did to the first couple in the garden.
This should be obvious to anybody.

Also consider the following:
God is setting up a contrast in the courtroom between:

Those who DID NOT SEE (the creation among other things) and believed.
Whereas those who DID SEE (all of these things along with God's Face) did NOT believe.

Furthermore, there is an "elder brother" vs "younger brother" typology going on here.

**************************************************************************

At the very least, we are witnesses at the coming trial. I wonder who is going to win the case?

1Co 6:3
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

 

[Rufus]

Loving God is doing his comandments which is to love our neighbor as ourself. I've seen unregenerate people do that. That cannot be unpleasing to God.

Since it was done without faith, with no love for God and zero interest in His glory, then how could it be pleasing to God? Any "good works" that omit God from the equation can only be as "filthy rags".

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Is that what the Good Samaritan did with the half-dead crime victim? The GS "forced" himself upon the man?

rolleyes ... this issue discussed more than a week ago ... and now you want to bring up this non-issue in your never-ending attempt to argue about what is not the issue concerning the parable of the good samaritan ... get a clue, man!
.

 

[Rufus]

Because Satan was trying (and failing) to pull a similar stunt there as he did to the first couple in the garden.
This should be obvious to anybody.

Also consider the following:
God is setting up a contrast in the courtroom between:

Those who DID NOT SEE (the creation among other things) and believed.
Whereas those who DID SEE (all of these things along with God's Face) did NOT believe.

Furthermore, there is an "elder brother" vs "younger brother" typology going on here.

**************************************************************************

At the very least, we are witnesses at the coming trial. I wonder who is going to win the case?

1Co 6:3
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

So...you're saying that God never granted the fallen angels the grace of repentance and faith, correct? And that's why they don't and can't believe in the Savior? Why would they believe in someone who was not given to them? But doesn't this make God UNJUST? Isn't one of the major FW mantras: God treats all his moral agents equally?

 

[Rufus]

rolleyes ... this issue discussed more than a week ago ... and now you want to bring up this non-issue in your never-ending attempt to argue about what is not the issue concerning the parable of the good samaritan ... get a clue, man!
.

It is the issue because the victim of sin (the half-dead guy) was HELPLESS, just as all of us are since we're all infected with sin and, therefore, just as helpless as he was in the story! The Good Samaritian story is one of a gracious RESCUE mission which you arrogant, prideful FWers for some odd reason cannot see. Your high view of humanity and low view of God has totally blinded many here.

 

[Slimsumo]

think about it, Rufus ... Adam and Eve originally had dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth (Gen 1:26).

In Luke 4, the devil stated that all this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me (Luke 4:6) ... the dominion God initially conferred to Adam and Eve was delivered to the devil when Adam and Eve sinned.

can you imagine what would have been "delivered" to the devil ??? ... yikes!!! ... and tbh ... the Lord Jesus Christ was incapable of sinning ... perhaps the devil did not know ???
.

Why do you believe the devil spoke the truth?