Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[HeIsHere]

some of those believers just don't know they are believers yet so they look like unbelievers.

Can you show me a scripture that states there are believers who do not know they are believers?

 

[Cameron143]

It's an assumption that all of these have been consigned to a fate in hell.



I offered it only some minutes ago, Acts17:30

You realize that was written long before the gospel was introduced to North America?

 

[Mem]

You realize that was written long before the gospel was introduced to North America?

But you can't deny that it is written

 

[lrs68]

30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,

God is the same today that He was when He Inspired Verse 30.

 

[sawdust]

Finally, by God not providing any salvation opportunities for the fallen angels, then how can you not believe He accepts and denies himself simultaneously?

Who said God did not provide salvation opportunities for the fallen angels? You weren't there and the scriptures are not concerned with giving us any details re their existence except for some very brief mentions.

I am addressing the argument.

No you're not. You stated men have inherently wicked hearts. The heart is a part of the soul which only God can create ergo you make God the author of wickedness. You also say only He can change that heart which means anyone He does not grant His salvation to is by definition, a product of Him rejecting Himself. God cannot deny Himself.

The problem here is you don't know enough truth to understand the problem correctly in the first place. You are in a pickle with inherent wickedness in the heart and God creating the soul of man in His image and likeness. Romans 7 clearly tells us the sin nature resides in the flesh which we got from our parents so the heart has nothing to do with anything inherent as the only thing we inherited is our flesh.

You think I'm not addressing the argument because you have not understood it in the first place.

 

[Cameron143]

But you can't deny that it is written

Yeah. It says God no longer winks at ignorance. Do you know what that means? It means ignorance isn't being winked at anymore. Humanity's get out of jail card no longer exists.

 

[sawdust]

Thought you said there were only two kinds of people: believers and unbelievers. Ignorant people are one of the two. They certainly aren't believers.

I also said some believers don't know they are believers yet. I believe the sate of "not knowing" is called ignorance.

I was also speaking from God's perspective as the topic is what type of person God saves and why it is necessary for us to reveal freely from our own soul.

 

[sawdust]

I agree about grace doing for us what we cannot do. Those you are defending do not believe this. I'm wondering why you aren't spending time asking them why.

Because I don't see them saying what you think they are saying.

 

[Cameron143]

Because I don't see them saying what you think they are saying.

Hardly.

 

[Jackson129]

Yeah. It says God no longer winks at ignorance. Do you know what that means? It means ignorance isn't being winked at anymore. Humanity's get out of jail card no longer exists.

It was never a get out of jail free card. Roman 2 verses 13 and 14.

 

[Rufus]

If salvation was dependent upon man, then you would have cause to worry. The Lord judges us on what we have been given. All men have creation as a witness, if that is all they have and they declare "the creation belongs to God", they are a believer and I am more than confident in the Lord to keep His promise to save believers.

Ultimately Mem, the question gets down to "do you trust the Lord to do right?" If you're grandma truly has a wicked heart because she preferred darkness over light, then you would not want to spend eternity with her. If, on the other hand, The Lord ensures she has all she needs even if we don't see their conversion. He sees what we cannot, trust Him, confident in His mercies and grace.

peace be with you

So a person can be justified by merely believing God created everything? The righteous can live by faith in the created universe? Can you give me chapter and verse on that?

And who gets to define "right": God or you?

 

[Rufus]

Sure, the Judge of all the earth will do right. But right includes large swaths of humanity never hearing the gospel. That's a difficult thing to contemplate, and, for some, hard to accept. But this truth does reveal things about God. Things many people don't ascribe to God, but are nonetheless true.

And one of those things is that grace is a gift of God. As such he has the RIGHT to withhold or dispense with His grace as He wishes. Conversely, no sinner has any claim or right to God's grace. It's utterly amazing how many people here evidently don't believe that.

 

[HeIsHere]

I also said some believers don't know they are believers yet. I believe the sate of "not knowing" is called ignorance.

I was also speaking from God's perspective as the topic is what type of person God saves and why it is necessary for us to reveal freely from our own soul.

@cv5 thoughts on the above statement that I bolded?
Do you know if there is a scriptural reference?

 

[Rufus]

Can you show me a scripture that states there are believers who do not know they are believers?

There are regenerated elect, who have not yet experienced the new birth and, therefore, don't know they are on the narrow path that leads to life. This will only become evident to them when they are actually born from above and have left the "darkness" of the womb.

 

[Rufus]

FWers, I asked a question a couple of days or so ago, but received no answer from any of you bible "scholars". Here it is again: What is the goal or purpose to God's grace? This is not a trick question. The answer is in the bible.

And I'll ask again another question I asked earlier today re Rom 1:16: Since the gospel is "the power of God unto salvation", is God's power efficacious and the primary cause to a person coming to faith? If not, what is the primary, efficacious cause?

 

[cv5]

But the gospel is always foolishness to the natural fallen man. If God does nothing to change this estate, He will die in his sins.

The super-determinist styled "natural man" fallacy has been debunked over and over again.

 

[HeIsHere]

There are regenerated elect, who have not yet experienced the new birth and, therefore, don't know they are on the narrow path that leads to life. This will only become evident to them when they are actually born from above and have left the "darkness" of the womb.

I know the group who adhere to "pre-selection" believe this.

 

[Cameron143]

The super-determinist styled "natural man" fallacy has been debunked over and over again.

So you say, but there he is, in his full unglory in scripture.

 

[cv5]

@cv5 thoughts on the above statement that I bolded?
Do you know if there is a scriptural reference?

This may fit the bill. Needs further scrutiny.

[Act 18:9 KJV]
Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:

[Act 18:10 KJV]
For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I G3427 have G2076 much G4183 people G2992 in this city.

[Act 18:11 KJV]
And he continued [there] a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

Inflected:ἐστίν
Root:ἐστί
Strong's:G2076
English:have
Code:V-PXI-3S
Long:Verb - Present (No voice stated) Indicative - 3rd Person Singular

 

[HeIsHere]

This may fit the bill. Needs further scrutiny.

[Act 18:9 KJV]
Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:

[Act 18:10 KJV]
For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I G3427 have G2076 much G4183 people G2992 in this city.

[Act 18:11 KJV]
And he continued [there] a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

Inflected:ἐστίν
Root:ἐστί
Strong's:G2076
English:have
Code:V-PXI-3S
Long:Verb - Present (No voice stated) Indicative - 3rd Person Singular

I am in serious doubt that a person would be regenerated without ever exercising personal faith in Christ Jesus for salvation, if that is indeed what @sawdust asserting.

But appreciate the scripture.