Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[sawdust]

Don't you believe God intervenes so man can make a choice? None of the people you are siding with believe that. They believe the gospel is audibly heard and man makes a choice. No intervention from God.

C'mon Cameron how many times must I say it? It's becoming ad nauseum.

God comes to us with grace and truth. Grace is real power to enable that which we cannot do ourselves. We cannot control the sin nature but God can suppress it and does when presenting His truth so the volition of man is free. The choice to accept or reject is there whether you consciously recognise that choice at the time or not. By your own admission, you rejected the Gospel twice before you believed. This is why I say there are only two types of people in the word believers and unbelievers and some of those believers just don't know they are believers yet so they look like unbelievers. That's how you looked the first two times.

If He didn't, we would all remain in darkness, eventually going down into death without escape and when death is thrown into the lake of fire, we all, believer and unbeliever alike, would wonder what the heck was going on because we would all still be utterly ignorant of God and His plan and purpose.

It's not true about the "people I'm siding with" as you put it. We are all on the same side to start with and we all recognise that apart from God's grace all of us are dead, dead, dead and would remain that way. We are saved by grace alone, not our will but that doesn't mean our will does not have a part to play in God's design. Our wills do not cause something to happen (in this case salvation), nor does it cause God to act, granting us salvation. It reveals who and what we are which is why it is important that our response to Christ comes freely from our own soul. God has determined to save believers, when it is revealed we are a believer, God keeps His promise.

Right now, if a wolf in sheep's clothing comes into the fold we don't know just by looking at them, but God knows. He wants everything revealed. He wants both angels and men to see what is in the heart of all so that when He judges, no-one can bring an accusation against Him leaving us, who have limited sight, to be left wondering if it is true or not. Compare the five "I wills" of Lucifer Is.14:13 They were all said "in his heart" where none but God and Lucifer could see. God is revealing the hearts of all men. God does not create wicked hearts, men learn to be wicked by rejecting the good. God is good!

You only need look at all the excuses people make for not believing. God is eliminating them all by doing things they way He is so that in the end, no-one can give excuse for not believing. With Limited Atonement, men have genuine excuses. How can they believe if God is responsible for them not believing. No-one can fight God and win.

 

[Cameron143]

Although we know that the Holy Spirit speaks through His Word, how can we know if the Holy Spirit only speaks through His Word. We are given that the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, but we cannot know that He doesn't call any particular person to seek it out and hear it. I would think that by this time and current age of communication, they'd at least heard some form of it even if by a rudimentary form of the game of telephone.

I'm not just talking about today, although there are many in the Middle East and Africa who haven't heard the gospel. But over the last 2,000 years, large numbers of people lived and died without hearing the gospel. The gospel didn't reach the New World until the 1500's, for example. What of people such as these?

 

[sawdust]

Not according to the chronological/logical flow of Jesus' discourse in Jn 6. For example, vv. 37, 44 precedes v. 45. The Father teaches those He has given to Christ. He doesn't teach anyone who doesn't belong to Him.

So you ignore the chronological flow of verse 45 even though it actually agrees with 37 & 44 that there is an approaching toward Christ before being giving to Christ so you can continue with your false arguments?

Unbelievers don't learn from the Father, they reject what He says, that is why we call them unbelievers.

 

[BillyBob]

The above poster thinks we think that we don't believe we are saved by God's grace alone.

I honestly cannot see how he/she could could have reached any other conclusion!

 

[Cameron143]

C'mon Cameron how many times must I say it? It's becoming ad nauseum.

God comes to us with grace and truth. Grace is real power to enable that which we cannot do ourselves. We cannot control the sin nature but God can suppress it and does when presenting His truth so the volition of man is free. The choice to accept or reject is there whether you consciously recognise that choice at the time or not. By your own admission, you rejected the Gospel twice before you believed. This is why I say there are only two types of people in the word believers and unbelievers and some of those believers just don't know they are believers yet so they look like unbelievers. That's how you looked the first two times.

If He didn't, we would all remain in darkness, eventually going down into death without escape and when death is thrown into the lake of fire, we all, believer and unbeliever alike, would wonder what the heck was going on because we would all still be utterly ignorant of God and His plan and purpose.

It's not true about the "people I'm siding with" as you put it. We are all on the same side to start with and we all recognise that apart from God's grace all of us are dead, dead, dead and would remain that way. We are saved by grace alone, not our will but that doesn't mean our will does not have a part to play in God's design. Our wills do not cause something to happen (in this case salvation), nor does it cause God to act, granting us salvation. It reveals who and what we are which is why it is important that our response to Christ comes freely from our own soul. God has determined to save believers, when it is revealed we are a believer, God keeps His promise.

Right now, if a wolf in sheep's clothing comes into the fold we don't know just by looking at them, but God knows. He wants everything revealed. He wants both angels and men to see what is in the heart of all so that when He judges, no-one can bring an accusation against Him leaving us, who have limited sight, to be left wondering if it is true or not. Compare the five "I wills" of Lucifer Is.14:13 They were all said "in his heart" where none but God and Lucifer could see. God is revealing the hearts of all men. God does not create wicked hearts, men learn to be wicked by rejecting the good. God is good!

You only need look at all the excuses people make for not believing. God is eliminating them all by doing things they way He is so that in the end, no-one can give excuse for not believing. With Limited Atonement, men have genuine excuses. How can they believe if God is responsible for them not believing. No-one can fight God and win.

I agree about grace doing for us what we cannot do. Those you are defending do not believe this. I'm wondering why you aren't spending time asking them why.

 

[sawdust]

You said it yourself...how can they believe what they haven't heard. They must be in a state of unbelief.

They are in a state of ignorance, having nothing to believe or not believe.

 

[Mem]

I'm not just talking about today, although there are many in the Middle East and Africa who haven't heard the gospel. But over the last 2,000 years, large numbers of people lived and died without hearing the gospel. The gospel didn't reach the New World until the 1500's, for example. What of people such as these?

I trust that God know what of them.

 

[Kroogz]

God comes to us with grace and truth. Grace is real power to enable that which we cannot do ourselves. We cannot control the sin nature but God can suppress it and does when presenting His truth so the volition of man is free.

AND He does this 24/7.

It's not like we get a shot at it here and there.

Now is the time of His favor. Now is the day of salvation........Grace.

Equal privilege, equal opportunity for ALL.

 

[Cameron143]

They are in a state of ignorance, having nothing to believe or not believe.

Thought you said there were only two kinds of people: believers and unbelievers. Ignorant people are one of the two. They certainly aren't believers.

 

[sawdust]

This has nothing to do with believing. How many people are born believing? If not, they are born unbelievers. God doesn't have to cause anyone not to believe. That is their natural estate.

Tell me anything you don't believe that you have no knowledge of? I can assure you, the moment you say something, it means you have some knowledge of the thing you say you don't believe.

Unbelievers reject the truth which, by necessity, means they must have some knowledge of the truth.

Knowing the soul is not created wicked and comes into this world with no knowledge of good or evil, has everything to do with understanding.

 

[Mem]

They are in a state of ignorance, having nothing to believe or not believe.

There was a peculiar part of the vision, not that the event wasn't entirely peculiar, but I saw the form standing and I wondered at who they were only intuitively knowing that it was a woman, and when I wondered if my intuition was correct, she revealed her bosoms (and you see now why it isn't easy sharing the vision but) it just now occurred to me what the strange idiom 'the mother of my bosom' might actually mean. God was aware of the question the gnawed at my heart, "what of my grandmother, who had never heard..."

 

[Mem]

Thought you said there were only two kinds of people: believers and unbelievers. Ignorant people are one of the two. They certainly aren't believers.

Ok, then, scripture is on record that God overlooks the ignorance of unbelievers.

 

[sawdust]

I honestly cannot see how he/she could could have reached any other conclusion!

I honestly can't see why they would come to the conclusion they do. I think I have been plain in saying we are saved by grace alone and that our wills do not create reality but rather reveal who and what we are, believer or unbeliever. That it is God who determined to save believers so that when we believe, He is simply keeping to His promise.

There are others here who can see that I am saying we don't save ourselves so why that poster can't? Maybe God has blinded them.

 

[Rufus]

You are not addressing the argument.

God cannot deny Himself, therefore He cannot be responsible for people rejecting Him. You claim He arbitrarily chose some to believe which, by necessity, means He chose some to not believe. He cannot both accept and deny Himself at the same time.

I am addressing the argument. You're the one who is clearly ducking it. Plus God is not responsible for anyone's sins (including rejection of Him or his Son). Adam put mankind in this pickle. But you obviously think God is somehow morally obligated to either save all or to provide salvation opportunities to all even though he was never morally responsible in the first place for man's dismal moral/spiritual condition.

Also, I never said that God arbitrarily chooses anyone for salvation. You are misrepresenting my position. God has a purpose for all things.

Finally, by God not providing any salvation opportunities for the fallen angels, then how can you not believe He accepts and denies himself simultaneously?

 

[Rufus]

How can one believe or not believe in something one has never heard? You can't respond to nothing. This why God meets us with grace and truth so that no-one has an excuse. The Spirit is in the world convincing people of righteousness, sin and judgment. Jn.16:8

He is not going around making everyone spiritually alive so they can comprehend this. It is the prelude to the Gospel.

People are learning from the Father prior to being given to Christ (saved). Jn.6:45

Do you believe that God restrains evil in this world?

 

[sawdust]

There was a peculiar part of the vision, not that the event wasn't entirely peculiar, but I saw the form standing and I wondered at who they were only intuitively knowing that it was a woman, and when I wondered if my intuition was correct, she revealed her bosoms (and you see now why it isn't easy sharing the vision but) it just now occurred to me what the strange idiom 'the mother of my bosom' might actually mean. God was aware of the question the gnawed at my heart, "what of my grandmother, who had never heard..."

If salvation was dependent upon man, then you would have cause to worry. The Lord judges us on what we have been given. All men have creation as a witness, if that is all they have and they declare "the creation belongs to God", they are a believer and I am more than confident in the Lord to keep His promise to save believers.

Ultimately Mem, the question gets down to "do you trust the Lord to do right?" If you're grandma truly has a wicked heart because she preferred darkness over light, then you would not want to spend eternity with her. If, on the other hand, The Lord ensures she has all she needs even if we don't see their conversion. He sees what we cannot, trust Him, confident in His mercies and grace.

peace be with you

 

[Cameron143]

I trust that God know what of them.

Sure, the Judge of all the earth will do right. But right includes large swaths of humanity never hearing the gospel. That's a difficult thing to contemplate, and, for some, hard to accept. But this truth does reveal things about God. Things many people don't ascribe to God, but are nonetheless true.

 

[BillyBob]

Only if it remains consistent with His character. He cannot deny Himself therefore He cannot cause people to not believe.

You say God cannot cause people not to believe. He doesn't need to, they are already in a state of unbelief! However, He can change a person's heart to believe when they hear the preached word. When that happens, it is not a work of man - it is a work of God himself!
Now tell me if you think this is true.....

 

[Cameron143]

Ok, then, scripture is on record that God overlooks the ignorance of unbelievers.

What scripture?

 

[Mem]

Sure, the Judge of all the earth will do right. But right includes large swaths of humanity never hearing the gospel. That's a difficult thing to contemplate, and, for some, hard to accept. But this truth does reveal things about God. Things many people don't ascribe to God, but are nonetheless true.

It's an assumption that all of these have been consigned to a fate in hell.

What scripture?

I offered it only some minutes ago, Acts17:30