Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[cv5]

That's a lot of people who were saved by their faith in the hand of God.

[Rom 1:8 KJV] 8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

[1Co 2:5 KJV] 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

[1Co 15:14, 17 KJV] 14 And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain. ...

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.

[2Co 1:24 KJV] 24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

[2Co 10:15 KJV] 15 Not boasting of things without [our] measure, [that is], of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,

[Eph 1:15 KJV] 15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

[Eph 3:17 KJV] 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

[Col 1:4 KJV] 4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love [which ye have] to all the saints,

[Col 2:5 KJV] 5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

[1Th 1:8 KJV] 8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.
[1Th 3:5, 10 KJV] 5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain. ...

10 Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?

[2Th 1:3-4 KJV] 3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;

4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

 

[Tex_MidwesternerNW]

[Rom 1:8 KJV] 8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

[1Co 2:5 KJV] 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

[1Co 15:14, 17 KJV] 14 And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain. ...

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.

[2Co 1:24 KJV] 24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

[2Co 10:15 KJV] 15 Not boasting of things without [our] measure, [that is], of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,

[Eph 1:15 KJV] 15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

[Eph 3:17 KJV] 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

[Col 1:4 KJV] 4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love [which ye have] to all the saints,

[Col 2:5 KJV] 5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

[1Th 1:8 KJV] 8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.
[1Th 3:5, 10 KJV] 5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain. ...

10 Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?

[2Th 1:3-4 KJV] 3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;

4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

What do you see in the Lord? I see the throne of his Radiance as He reclines by the Father's right hand. Nobody comes to Him but through the Father, I think??

 

[sawdust]

That's funny. I'm the one giving God all the credit and glory. You guys make things about man and yourselves.

I wonder if the Lord wants to take the credit for you? Maybe He'll pass.

 

[Tex_MidwesternerNW]

I wonder if the Lord wants to take the credit for you? Maybe He'll pass.

I would argue that he should make my account show no guilt, not to come to him for satisfaction but for rest.

 

[sawdust]

Yup, sure is, so then you're saying that your belief didn't save you? Which is it, your belief, or Christ? there is only one who saves.

No-one here has ever said our believing has saved us so why you must continue to perpetrate the lie, beats me.

It is by the determination of the Lord that He saves believers. It is not our believing that saves but the Lord's determination. It is very easy to understand. If He had not decided to save believers, it wouldn't matter if we believed or not, we would not be saved under those circumstances.

At least have the decency to understand what we are saying and please and stop with this insane "our believing saved us" rubbish. Thankyou.

grace and peace

 

[Tex_MidwesternerNW]

No-one here has ever said our believing has saved us so why you must continue to perpetrate the lie, beats me.

It is by the determination of the Lord that He saves believers. It is not our believing that saves but the Lord's determination. It is very easy to understand. If He had not decided to save believers, it wouldn't matter if we believed or not, we would not be saved under those circumstances.

At least have the decency to understand what we are saying and please and stop with this insane "our believing saved us" rubbish. Thankyou.

grace and peace

I don't know. I believe in the covenant made to Abraham as justifying my baptism, since it is an act of faith to be a circumcised Gentile. There are things about Jewish custom that make it the Tree of Life which shares nourishment in grafted lineages like mine. But my mother is a daughter of Abraham, which is why I know that I am not going to be knocked down by the severity of God.

 

[sawdust]

I don't know. I believe in the covenant made to Abraham as justifying my baptism, since it is an act of faith to be a circumcised Gentile. There are things about Jewish custom that make it the Tree of Life which shares nourishment in grafted lineages like mine. But my mother is a daughter of Abraham, which is why I know that I am not going to be knocked down by the severity of God.

It sounds to me we both believe God keeps true to His word. What He says He will do, this He does.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

 

[Tex_MidwesternerNW]

It sounds to me we both believe God keeps true to His word. What He says He will do, this He does.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Yes according to his Unfailing Love, even if the branch of my stem is brought down by a gust of wind, He can choose to graft it again. And I know my ancestors have names. They had lives that I can witness as faithful to the reason why I remain. I am not a lousy stick in the mud, I am a carefully selected olive branch that seems to be growing into maturity and fruitfulness.

 

[Jordon]

So, in Calvinist terms, you can choose to put your morsel of bread into the Cup, but do not take this morsel except for the purpose of intinction.

Matthew 23:25-26, "What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are so careful to clean the outside of the cup and the dish, but inside you are filthy -- full of greed and self-indulgence! You blind Pharisee! First wash the inside of the cup and the dish,* and then the outside will become clean, too."

Rightfully speaking, this is because His Name is on the altar and one does not bring Him corrupt gold.

was Jesus refering to Calvinists as being filthy ?

How about this Calvie is she filthy to ?

Yeah, what about scripture again? Where does Jesus say that he loves Presbyterians but only if they have ever been in the holy Catholic Church as a member?

I'm sorry, did you say Calvinism has theological weight that exceeds Luther?

who said this ?

So, in Calvinist terms, you can choose to put your morsel of bread into the Cup, but do not take this morsel except for the purpose of intinction.

Matthew 23:25-26, "What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are so careful to clean the outside of the cup and the dish, but inside you are filthy -- full of greed and self-indulgence! You blind Pharisee! First wash the inside of the cup and the dish,* and then the outside will become clean, too."

Rightfully speaking, this is because His Name is on the altar and one does not bring Him corrupt gold.

instead of using scripture to condemn people here why don't you just say who are the hypocrites here you have issue with ?

I will not say, "you cannot save yourself," but I have.

What's with your quote here ,?

But what does the Lord say about his coming? Does he say, get some sleep and pick heads of wheat on Sabbath? Or does he say you should hand over the deed to your home and join a convent?

what are you are aiming this at Cameron for, is it because you see your free will as important ? This is the lords faith being expressed telling people to do things that they wouldn't normally do with there own will, because it's .cares only for itself.

So, why tear down your barn just to have more room for grain? Does this make any sense? Perhaps what rest God intends for his chosen people is greater than the works we commit to it.

Matthew 12 (NLT, Tyndale House)
Verses 3-8: "Jesus said to them, "Haven't you read in the Scriptures what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He went into the house of God, and he and his companions broke the law by eating the sacred loaves of bread that only the priests are allowed to eat. And haven't you read in the law of Moses that the priests on duty in the Temple may work on the Sabbath? I tell you, there is one here who is even greater than the Temple! But you would not have condemned my innocent disciples if you knew the meaning of this Scripture: 'I want to show you mercy, not offer sacrifices.'* For the Son of Man* is Lord, even over the Sabbath!" (Hosea 6:6)

Mark 2 (NLT, Tyndale House)
Verses 23-28: ""One Sabbath day as Jesus was walking through some grainfields, his disciples began breaking off heads of grain to eat. But the Pharisees said to Jesus, "Look, why are they breaking the law by harvesting grain on the Sabbath?" "Jesus said to them, "Haven't you ever read in the Scriptures what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He went into the house of God (during the days when Abiathar was high priest) and broke the law by eating the sacred loaves of bread that only the priests are allowed to eat. He also gave some to his companions." Then Jesus said to them, "The Sabbath was made to meet the needs of people, and not people to meet the requirements of the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even over the Sabbath!"

Luke 6 (NLT, Tyndale House)
Verses 1-5: ""One Sabbath day as Jesus was walking through some grainfields, his disciples broke off heads of grain, rubbed off the husks, and ate the grain. But some Pharisees said, "Why are you breaking the law by harvesting grain on the Sabbath?" Jesus replied, "Haven't you read in the Scriptures what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He went into the house of God and broke the law by eating the sacred loaves of bread that only the priests can eat. He also gave some to his companions." And Jesus added, "The Son of Man* is Lord, even over the Sabbath.""


Luke 12:16-21 (NLT)

"Then he told them a story: "A rich man had a fertile farm that produced fine crops. He said to himself, 'What should I do? I don't have room for all my crops.' Then he said, "I know! I'll tear down my barns and build bigger ones. Then I'll have room enough to store all my wheat and other goods. And I'll sit back and say to myself, "My friend, you have enough stored away for years to come. Now take it easy! Eat, drink, and be merry!"' "But God said to him, 'You fool! You will die this very night. Then who will get everything you worked for?' "Yes, a person is a fool to store up earthly wealth but not have a rich relationship with God."

again why do aim this scripture at Cameron ?

Why do you think he doesn't want people to have relationships with God.

Beg pardon, no real use for name calling. I have a background worshiping with people who are Calvinist

what Calvinists where they ?.
People on the internet ? Did they confess they where Calvinists to you ?

 

[Jordon]

Not the problem.....

You express a hatred for mankind.
That man is good for nothing.
Each human soul is so precious to God that he willingly endured the Cross.

In effect... what you say about man makes Jesus a fool for dying for us.

And... "the heart is deceitful" passage you folks keep citing is not understood in its proper context.

It is a mess what you are thinking.
It makes God's love for man a hypocrisy.

What you snidely mislabel as "free will"?
God calls volition.
He has given man the freedom to use his volition.

But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves
this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond
the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as
for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”

Joshua 24:15

no he doesn't hate because hes a nice person, i read all his quotes and see all his good intentions,

And you have yet to apologise to him for condemning him to hell, there is no rapture for you if you don't repent

 

[Jordon]

Exactly. His charge against us holds as much weight as my charge against him

If belief is defined as @rogerg defines it.......He is also a "worker" for.

He and the calvies don't have the belief market cornered with a special kind of belief.

Nope Roger is another nice very patient Christian here you just condem at your own leisure.

 

[Tex_MidwesternerNW]

was Jesus refering to Calvinists as being filthy ?

How about this Calvie is she filthy to ?

who said this ?

instead of using scripture to condemn people here why don't you just say who are the hypocrites here you have issue with ?
What's with your quote here ,?
what are you are aiming this at Cameron for, is it because you see your free will as important ? This is the lords faith being expressed telling people to do things that they wouldn't normally do with there own will, because it's .cares only for itself.
again why do aim this scripture at Cameron ?

Why do you think he doesn't want people to have relationships with God.
what Calvinists where they ?.
People on the internet ? Did they confess they where Calvinists to you ?

I see that it is right not to justify myself here. I actually did hear a confession that was intended for a priest in the hospital. That person did mention Calvinism to me gently. I gave my offering to the patient in hospital care and was careful not to mention it.

 

[Tex_MidwesternerNW]

I need to let you know that I made this offering in exigence of faith, just by showing concern and giving my signature that I know what was said is all medical PHI. I have some experience handling that claims referral. But nothing what was spoken is important.

I just know that I was in her Presence as a fellow member and wanted to say goodbye. It wasn't the last time seeing everyone.

 

[Jordon]

my understanding is that God removed His hedge from Job ... that the only restriction was that satan could not take the life of Job:

Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

Job endured the terrible onslaught of the adversary ... Job remained steadfast in faith.

Job was familiar with a close relationship with God ... however, in chapter 23 Job cried out in anguish because God had removed His hedge:

Job 23:3, 8-12

3 Oh that I knew where I might find him! that I might come even to his seat!

...

8 Behold, I go forward, but he is not there; and backward, but I cannot perceive him:

9 On the left hand, where he doth work, but I cannot behold him: he hideth himself on the right hand, that I cannot see him:

10 But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold.

11 My foot hath held his steps, his way have I kept, and not declined.

12 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.

Job held fast to God's promises, esteeming His Word more precious than food. Job's faith was deeply rooted in God and His promises.

I wonder how many of us would fare if we were put to the test as Job was ... reading through the pages of this thread, I seriously doubt we would measure up ... just sayin'


Ezekiel wrote concerning Job ...

Ezekiel 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 14:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

high commendation from the Lord God.


then we also read in James ...

James 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

"patience of Job" ... the word "patience" is a noun ... Greek word hypomonē [Strongs G5281] ... which means endurance, steadfastness, perseverance, patient waiting; the character quality or the state of mind that endures during trying times.

the word "endure" is a verb ... Greek word hypomenō [Strongs G5278] ... which means to remain i. e. abide, not recede or flee; to bravely and calmly persevere: remain steadfast, under misfortunes and trials to hold fast to one's faith.

We live in a time in which the presence of God is within each born again believer ... we are not as Job who was left bereft when God removed His hedge. Job endured much suffering at the hand of satan ... yet we are reduced to name-calling and mudslinging at the slightest reproof.


One of my favorite verses ... and a verse all my children memorized from an early age ... is Hebrews 10:36 ...

Hebrews 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

as they got older, vs 37 was added as well ...

Hebrews 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

for those who know the end of the book ... we can endure a little longer ... He will come. Keeping this great and precious promise in the forefront of our minds helps us to endure whatever we face in this life.

disclosure ... I am well aware that it's God holding on to us more than us holding on to Him ... but we also strive to hear the words "well done good and faithful servant" ... so spare me "works oriented" the comments ... thanks!
.

my understanding here Job was a man like all other men that where born into a fallen nature,.that God the father provided a hedge of protection for.

Which I feel we really should try to understand what that means,

Would job have been able to be righteous in the lords eyes without that hedge of protection protecting him from being accused ?

And what was that hedge of protection ? Was it the devine power of God shielding him, you know, the devine nature of the father, that has will, and love and peace, and grace to enrich enable and protect those who accept his way, it just must have been surely.

Then why would somebody of a fallen nature be given a hedge of protection, surely everyone must start of with a hedge of protection from the devine nature of the father going to work in them,

I mean he walked with over million men for 40 years giving a hedge of protection to them all, half of them would go on to have the devine nature of the son going to work in them, the other half seems to have been left out, if we see the entrance to the promised land as the gifting of the sons devine nature, it must be since just before they entered the promised land they where told they where going to have their hearts made new by God, that surely that must mean being given a new spiritual nature, that comes from the devine, by the last words of Moses they where told this by moses, who had also beem changed by God by being in his presence, surely they new nature you receive is devine...sure being connected to the vine is define



So what else must hedge of protection, surely it offers a way out of darkness from the devine nature of the father. When Adam and eve had fallen there was Gof still speaking to them how could they speak back with that hedge of protection still being there.

How.could God reward Adam and eves son, without his encouragement. Surely his hedge of protection has a divine nature that goes to work in people

 

[Jordon]

I see that it is right not to justify myself here. I actually did hear a confession that was intended for a priest in the hospital. That person did mention Calvinism to me gently. I gave my offering to the patient in hospital care and was careful not to mention it.

do you think calvinists justify themselves ?

 

[Tex_MidwesternerNW]

my understanding here Job was a man like all other men that where born into a fallen nature,.that God the father provided a hedge of protection for.

Which I feel we really should try to understand what that means,

Would job have been able to be righteous in the lords eyes without that hedge of protection protecting him from being accused ?

And what was that hedge of protection ? Was it the devine power of God shielding him, you know, the devine nature of the father, that has will, and love and peace, and grace to enrich enable and protect those who accept his way, it just must have been surely.

Then why would somebody of a fallen nature be given a hedge of protection, surely everyone must start of with a hedge of protection from the devine nature of the father going to work in them,

I mean he walked with over million men for 40 years giving a hedge of protection to them all, half of them would go on to have the devine nature of the son going to work in them, the other half seems to have been left out, if we see the entrance to the promised land as the gifting of the sons devine nature, it must be since just before they entered the promised land they where told they where going to have their hearts made new by God, that surely that must mean being given a new spiritual nature, that comes from the devine, by the last words of Moses they where told this by moses, who had also beem changed by God by being in his presence, surely they new nature you receive is devine...sure being connected to the vine is define



So what else must hedge of protection, surely it offers a way out of darkness from the devine nature of the father. When Adam and eve had fallen there was Gof still speaking to them how could they speak back with that hedge of protection still being there.

How.could God reward Adam and eves son, without his encouragement. Surely his hedge of protection has a divine nature that goes to work in people

Did Job fall from Grace? No. The devil was tormenting him and God would only be moved with Job by the value of his prayers, not his losses.

 

[Tex_MidwesternerNW]

do you think calvinists justify themselves ?

That is an interesting juxtaposition. We are justified through Faith, and by Grace.

 

[Jordon]

That is an interesting juxtaposition. We are justified through Faith, and by Grace.

how about Calvinists how are they justified

 

[Tex_MidwesternerNW]

how about Calvinists how are they justified

They are justified by being held by the Lord, in Life and in death.

 

[Jordon]

Did Job fall from Grace? No. The devil was tormenting him and God would only be moved with Job by the value of his prayers, not his losses.

This has nothing to do with what I wrote. And I don't know how you can come to this understanding from what I wrote.

Maybe you could could explain how you have ?