Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Solitude]

 

[Cameron143]

According to John Calvin, yes, but not according to scripture. Btw, sovereignty is nowhere found in scripture.

What about Daniel 4:35?

 

[Magenta]

Colossians 2 v 13, John 5 v 21 When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom He wishes.

 

[Magenta]

Btw, sovereignty is nowhere found in scripture.

While the term "sovereignty" itself is a later theological word, the ideas of God's supreme rule, ultimate
control, and absolute authority are presented throughout the Bible via various concepts and terms.

 

[Magenta]

What about Daniel 4:35?

Jesus explicitly told Pontius Pilate that he would have no authority unless it had been given to him
from above (John 19:11), demonstrating that even human rulers operate under God's ultimate authority.
Daniel 4:35 describes God doing according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants
of the earth: and none can stay His hand, or say unto Him, "What are you doing?"

 

[Genez]

But his ACTIVE decision was to let the sins take place instead of preventing them.

So?

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

I Grokked it. Please review and provide feedback.

*******************************************************************************************

Here are the clearest verses in the Textus Receptus-based King James Bible (the Greek text underlying the KJV New Testament) that present the gospel/salvation as offered to all mankind without exception — the classic “universal gospel call” passages that stand in direct opposition to a strictly limited atonement or hyper-Calvinist “elect-only” offer.


I give the KJV English, the exact Greek phrase from the Textus Receptus, and the key grammatical construction that proves the offer is universal.

The Strongest Universal Offer Verses (Textus Receptus / KJV)

1. John 3:16 KJV: “For God so loved the world… that whosoever believeth in him should not perish…” Greek (TR): ὅτι οὕτως ἠγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον … πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν → τὸν κόσμον = “the world” (kosmos in the broadest sense) → πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων = “every one believing / whosoever believes” (universal distributive)
2. John 1:29 KJV: “Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.” Greek: ὁ αἴρων τὴν ἁμαρτίαν τοῦ κόσμου → again τοῦ κόσμου (genitive of the whole kosmos)
3. John 4:42 KJV: “this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.” Greek: ὁ σωτὴρ τοῦ κόσμου
4. John 6:33 KJV: “For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.” Greek: τῷ κόσμῳ ζωὴν δίδωσιν
5. John 6:51 KJV: “…and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” Greek: ὑπὲρ τῆς τοῦ κόσμου ζωῆς δώσω
6. 1 John 2:2 (one of the strongest anti-limited-atonement verses) KJV: “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” Greek: περὶ ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου → ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου = literally “of the whole world” (no exceptions)
7. 1 Timothy 2:3-6 KJV: “…God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved… who gave himself a ransom for all…” Greek: πάντας ἀνθρώπους … ἀντίλυτρον ὑπὲρ πάντων → πάντας ἀνθρώπους and ὑπὲρ πάντων = “all men” / “for all” (no restricted category)
8. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV: “not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” Greek: πάντας εἰς μετάνοιαν χωρῆσαι
9. Acts 17:30 KJV: “…now commandeth all men every where to repent” Greek: πᾶσιν τοῖς ἀνθρώποις πανταχοῦ μετανοεῖν
10. Romans 5:18 KJV: “…by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.” Greek: εἰς πάντας ἀνθρώπους εἰς δικαίωσιν ζωῆς
11. Titus 2:11 KJV: “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men” Greek: Πᾶσιν ἀνθρώποις ἐπεφάνη ἡ χάρις τοῦ Θεοῦ ἡ σωτήριος
12. Revelation 22:17 KJV: “And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.” Greek: ὁ θέλων λαβέτω … δωρεάν (“whosoever is willing” — open invitation)
13. Isaiah 45:22 quoted in the NT spirit (though OT): “Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth.”

The Necessary Greek Constructions for a Genuine Universal Gospel Call

In the Textus Receptus, a truly universal offer (as opposed to a merely theoretical or elect-only one) almost always uses one or more of these grammatical markers:

1. κόσμος (kosmos) without any limiting genitive — especially in John’s writings (John 3:16; 1:29; 4:42; 6:33, 51; 1 John 2:2). When John wants to say “world of the elect” he never does; he always means mankind in general.
2. πᾶς / πάντες / ὅλος without restricting apposition
   • πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων (John 3:16)
   • πάντας ἀνθρώπους (1 Tim 2:4, 6; Titus 2:11)
   • ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου (1 John 2:2) These are distributive universals — “each and every,” not “all kinds of.”
3. ὑπὲρ + genitive of person with πᾶς or κόσμος (died “for” all / “for” the world) — John 6:51; 1 Tim 2:6; 2 Cor 5:14-15.
4. Indefinite relative pronouns — ὅστις, ὁ θέλων (“whosoever,” Rev 22:17; cf. John 3:15-16 in some TR manuscripts).
5. Second-person plural imperatives addressed to mixed crowds — “Repent ye” (Acts 2:38; 17:30), “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ” (Acts 16:31) given to unbelieving jailers, Gentile audiences, etc.

These constructions are impossible to reconcile with a strict “offer only to the elect” view unless one resorts to the “two wills” or “secret will” distinctions that many non-Calvinists (and even some moderate Calvinists) regard as special pleading.


So in the Textus Receptus KJV itself, the universal gospel call to every sinner without exception is not a rare doctrine — it is the dominant note sounded again and again.

Overall pretty good, brother.
I agree that the Calvinist cannot reconcile the truth of these verses in the Greek or English.

I use ChatGPT for Greek word for word breakdowns because I have a subscription. But I do try to confirm things in Perplexity because it confirms things with sources. However, Grok has given me false hypotheticals (I did not ask for) many times even providing sources that do not pan out. ChatGPT will sometimes give you false info., but it is not as common like with Grok in my view. Perplexity is probably my top favorite for general searches and double checking things because it provides sources for me to verify. I pretty much banned Grok. It let me down too many times. But that was my experience.



…..


……

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

I Grokked it. Please review and provide feedback.

*******************************************************************************************

Here are the clearest verses in the Textus Receptus-based King James Bible (the Greek text underlying the KJV New Testament) that present the gospel/salvation as offered to all mankind without exception — the classic “universal gospel call” passages that stand in direct opposition to a strictly limited atonement or hyper-Calvinist “elect-only” offer.


I give the KJV English, the exact Greek phrase from the Textus Receptus, and the key grammatical construction that proves the offer is universal.

The Strongest Universal Offer Verses (Textus Receptus / KJV)

1. John 3:16 KJV: “For God so loved the world… that whosoever believeth in him should not perish…” Greek (TR): ὅτι οὕτως ἠγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον … πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν → τὸν κόσμον = “the world” (kosmos in the broadest sense) → πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων = “every one believing / whosoever believes” (universal distributive)
2. John 1:29 KJV: “Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.” Greek: ὁ αἴρων τὴν ἁμαρτίαν τοῦ κόσμου → again τοῦ κόσμου (genitive of the whole kosmos)
3. John 4:42 KJV: “this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.” Greek: ὁ σωτὴρ τοῦ κόσμου
4. John 6:33 KJV: “For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.” Greek: τῷ κόσμῳ ζωὴν δίδωσιν
5. John 6:51 KJV: “…and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” Greek: ὑπὲρ τῆς τοῦ κόσμου ζωῆς δώσω
6. 1 John 2:2 (one of the strongest anti-limited-atonement verses) KJV: “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” Greek: περὶ ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου → ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου = literally “of the whole world” (no exceptions)
7. 1 Timothy 2:3-6 KJV: “…God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved… who gave himself a ransom for all…” Greek: πάντας ἀνθρώπους … ἀντίλυτρον ὑπὲρ πάντων → πάντας ἀνθρώπους and ὑπὲρ πάντων = “all men” / “for all” (no restricted category)
8. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV: “not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” Greek: πάντας εἰς μετάνοιαν χωρῆσαι
9. Acts 17:30 KJV: “…now commandeth all men every where to repent” Greek: πᾶσιν τοῖς ἀνθρώποις πανταχοῦ μετανοεῖν
10. Romans 5:18 KJV: “…by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.” Greek: εἰς πάντας ἀνθρώπους εἰς δικαίωσιν ζωῆς
11. Titus 2:11 KJV: “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men” Greek: Πᾶσιν ἀνθρώποις ἐπεφάνη ἡ χάρις τοῦ Θεοῦ ἡ σωτήριος
12. Revelation 22:17 KJV: “And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.” Greek: ὁ θέλων λαβέτω … δωρεάν (“whosoever is willing” — open invitation)
13. Isaiah 45:22 quoted in the NT spirit (though OT): “Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth.”

The Necessary Greek Constructions for a Genuine Universal Gospel Call

In the Textus Receptus, a truly universal offer (as opposed to a merely theoretical or elect-only one) almost always uses one or more of these grammatical markers:

1. κόσμος (kosmos) without any limiting genitive — especially in John’s writings (John 3:16; 1:29; 4:42; 6:33, 51; 1 John 2:2). When John wants to say “world of the elect” he never does; he always means mankind in general.
2. πᾶς / πάντες / ὅλος without restricting apposition
   • πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων (John 3:16)
   • πάντας ἀνθρώπους (1 Tim 2:4, 6; Titus 2:11)
   • ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου (1 John 2:2) These are distributive universals — “each and every,” not “all kinds of.”
3. ὑπὲρ + genitive of person with πᾶς or κόσμος (died “for” all / “for” the world) — John 6:51; 1 Tim 2:6; 2 Cor 5:14-15.
4. Indefinite relative pronouns — ὅστις, ὁ θέλων (“whosoever,” Rev 22:17; cf. John 3:15-16 in some TR manuscripts).
5. Second-person plural imperatives addressed to mixed crowds — “Repent ye” (Acts 2:38; 17:30), “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ” (Acts 16:31) given to unbelieving jailers, Gentile audiences, etc.

These constructions are impossible to reconcile with a strict “offer only to the elect” view unless one resorts to the “two wills” or “secret will” distinctions that many non-Calvinists (and even some moderate Calvinists) regard as special pleading.


So in the Textus Receptus KJV itself, the universal gospel call to every sinner without exception is not a rare doctrine — it is the dominant note sounded again and again.

You may like Nick Sayers (Revolution Debates) YouTube channel. Nick goes into the Greek that underlies the KJV and talks about the textual issues involving the Bible. He is from Australia, and he talks at length on the Bible topic (focusing on the original languages that underlie the KJV). He is also not a Calvinist (Although he has been friendly with them because he agrees with some of them on their stand for the TR / KJV issue). To find his past videos, click on the "live" button and not the "videos" section on YouTube. He runs a Facebook page called Textus Receptus Academy, as well.



.....

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

I have seen a different experience when it comes to online debates and using God's word. In many debates people use his word with no regard to the sanctity of it they just use it to prove themselves right and others wrong it isn't about his word it is is about their point of view or on the other hand they will use it to mock or ridicule others they will cherry pick it take it out of context and form doctrines on what they have cherry picked and others still believe that just because they post scripture it makes their words and point valid yet they have no understanding of the scripture they just used they just think that it makes their point valid

The word of God is not a toy to use as we please and if it is used it is to be used with reverence I would rather use it sparingly in it's context with reverence and respect and for the purpose of edifying and building others up than to use it often out of context only to prove my own point to be right and others wrong or to take it out of context cherry pick it or use it to mock or put others down

It is kind of like how those who speak often are often times seen as unwise while those who speak little but when they do speak it is always profound and they are seen as wise because of this

Now compare it to scripture those who quote scripture often willy nilly do not tend to understand the verses they are using while those who use it sparingly for the right reason and with great reverence know and understand the scriptures but more importantly what it is meant to be used for

I agree that Scripture must never be used lightly or irreverently. Many people do misuse God’s Word online as a toy to defend their pet beliefs. That is not honoring the Lord. However, Scripture says we are to “preach the word” (2 Timothy 4:2 KJV). In other words, at the end of the day, the truth of God’s Word needs to shine forth, and only one truth can stand. Not many.

My original point, though, was simply this: when someone consistently avoids Scripture in doctrinal discussion, that is usually a sign of something deeper. Those who regard God’s Word as “very pure” will truly love it, and those who love it will naturally bring it into the conversation (Psalm 119:140 KJV). Using Scripture rightly and in context is not the same thing as misusing it.

You mentioned that some people quote verses carelessly or out of context, and I fully agree. But that does not mean we should quote Scripture sparingly. It means we should quote it rightly with reverence, accuracy, and submission to its authority. What concerns me most is when a person hardly uses Scripture at all, especially when discussing doctrines that require clarity from God’s Word.

That was my point with 2 Thessalonians 2:10. When someone calls a plain passage a “dark” or “mysterious” verse simply because it contradicts their belief system, that is not reverence for the Word. That is avoiding the actual text.

I am always suspicious of a believer who says we should not use the Bible in a discussion, because it sounds very similar to the Charismatic groups or others who tell Bible-believing Christians that they are “too Bible-minded,” as if Scripture itself were the problem. A true love for God’s Word produces a desire to speak it, study it, and rely on it, because “out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.”




…..

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

The elect are only in danger if they ignore the perseverance warnings in scriptures. The true saints will always persevere because of God's preserving grace. (Have you ever noticed the multiple calls to persevere in the Book of Hebrews?)

As far as your second question is concerned: The LESS-THAN-IDEAl moral/spiritual conditions here on earth are strictly temporary. In the ideal, sinless, perfect, eternal New Order, no one will have to worry about persevering in the faith because faith will give way to sight. Meanwhile, though, both God and his saints will have have work through salvation in this very messy, sinful world.

So you believe in a form of Conditional Salvation?
Do you consider yourself a Calvinist or adhering to Calvinistic teachings in some way?


....

 

[Genez]

But you are not! God predestined those He [fore]KNEW in eternity. Plus God's will is not contingent on any of his creatures' wills.

Here's another newsflash for you: All the OT saints are the Bride of Christ along with the NT saints. God was always the Husband to the remnant of believing Israel. God doesn't have multiple peoples, that he saves with multiple gospels for multiple eschatological reasons.

Not "the husband."
But, God was as a husband to them.
Some translators rendered it "master."

‘Return, O faithless children [of the twelve tribes],’ says the Lord,​

‘For I am a master and husband to you,​

And I will take you [not as a nation, but individually]—one from a city and two from a [tribal] family—​

And I will bring you to Zion." Jeremiah 3:14​

He did not say that He is their husband.
He did not say... "I am your husband."
Instead, that he was a husband and master to them.

The language speaks of how God related to Israel. "As a husband."

Of course, some translators took liberties and made it appear as if God is even married to them. It does not say that in the Hebrew.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

I have seen a different experience when it comes to online debates and using God's word. In many debates people use his word with no regard to the sanctity of it they just use it to prove themselves right and others wrong it isn't about his word it is is about their point of view or on the other hand they will use it to mock or ridicule others they will cherry pick it take it out of context and form doctrines on what they have cherry picked and others still believe that just because they post scripture it makes their words and point valid yet they have no understanding of the scripture they just used they just think that it makes their point valid

The word of God is not a toy to use as we please and if it is used it is to be used with reverence I would rather use it sparingly in it's context with reverence and respect and for the purpose of edifying and building others up than to use it often out of context only to prove my own point to be right and others wrong or to take it out of context cherry pick it or use it to mock or put others down

It is kind of like how those who speak often are often times seen as unwise while those who speak little but when they do speak it is always profound and they are seen as wise because of this

Now compare it to scripture those who quote scripture often willy nilly do not tend to understand the verses they are using while those who use it sparingly for the right reason and with great reverence know and understand the scriptures but more importantly what it is meant to be used for

I also know that if a person just keeps quoting their own thoughts primarily and not Scripture, it is their thoughts they are promoting and not the Word of God. If a person has a problem with promoting the Bible, I would say that they have not been truly transformed by it to want to speak about the Word in love and abundance (Which is only natural for true born again believers). Yes, there are going to be those who quote a lot of the Bible and they do so out of context. You will always get those types, but it is far worse to not talk about the Bible at all or to seldomly do so. It simply reveals that they are here to promote their own thoughts and carnal ideas, rather than the Bible itself.


....

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

I Grokked it. Please review and provide feedback.

*******************************************************************************************

Here are the clearest verses in the Textus Receptus-based King James Bible (the Greek text underlying the KJV New Testament) that present the gospel/salvation as offered to all mankind without exception — the classic “universal gospel call” passages that stand in direct opposition to a strictly limited atonement or hyper-Calvinist “elect-only” offer.


I give the KJV English, the exact Greek phrase from the Textus Receptus, and the key grammatical construction that proves the offer is universal.

The Strongest Universal Offer Verses (Textus Receptus / KJV)

1. John 3:16 KJV: “For God so loved the world… that whosoever believeth in him should not perish…” Greek (TR): ὅτι οὕτως ἠγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον … πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν → τὸν κόσμον = “the world” (kosmos in the broadest sense) → πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων = “every one believing / whosoever believes” (universal distributive)
2. John 1:29 KJV: “Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.” Greek: ὁ αἴρων τὴν ἁμαρτίαν τοῦ κόσμου → again τοῦ κόσμου (genitive of the whole kosmos)
3. John 4:42 KJV: “this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.” Greek: ὁ σωτὴρ τοῦ κόσμου
4. John 6:33 KJV: “For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.” Greek: τῷ κόσμῳ ζωὴν δίδωσιν
5. John 6:51 KJV: “…and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” Greek: ὑπὲρ τῆς τοῦ κόσμου ζωῆς δώσω
6. 1 John 2:2 (one of the strongest anti-limited-atonement verses) KJV: “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” Greek: περὶ ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου → ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου = literally “of the whole world” (no exceptions)
7. 1 Timothy 2:3-6 KJV: “…God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved… who gave himself a ransom for all…” Greek: πάντας ἀνθρώπους … ἀντίλυτρον ὑπὲρ πάντων → πάντας ἀνθρώπους and ὑπὲρ πάντων = “all men” / “for all” (no restricted category)
8. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV: “not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” Greek: πάντας εἰς μετάνοιαν χωρῆσαι
9. Acts 17:30 KJV: “…now commandeth all men every where to repent” Greek: πᾶσιν τοῖς ἀνθρώποις πανταχοῦ μετανοεῖν
10. Romans 5:18 KJV: “…by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.” Greek: εἰς πάντας ἀνθρώπους εἰς δικαίωσιν ζωῆς
11. Titus 2:11 KJV: “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men” Greek: Πᾶσιν ἀνθρώποις ἐπεφάνη ἡ χάρις τοῦ Θεοῦ ἡ σωτήριος
12. Revelation 22:17 KJV: “And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.” Greek: ὁ θέλων λαβέτω … δωρεάν (“whosoever is willing” — open invitation)
13. Isaiah 45:22 quoted in the NT spirit (though OT): “Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth.”

The Necessary Greek Constructions for a Genuine Universal Gospel Call

In the Textus Receptus, a truly universal offer (as opposed to a merely theoretical or elect-only one) almost always uses one or more of these grammatical markers:

1. κόσμος (kosmos) without any limiting genitive — especially in John’s writings (John 3:16; 1:29; 4:42; 6:33, 51; 1 John 2:2). When John wants to say “world of the elect” he never does; he always means mankind in general.
2. πᾶς / πάντες / ὅλος without restricting apposition
   • πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων (John 3:16)
   • πάντας ἀνθρώπους (1 Tim 2:4, 6; Titus 2:11)
   • ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου (1 John 2:2) These are distributive universals — “each and every,” not “all kinds of.”
3. ὑπὲρ + genitive of person with πᾶς or κόσμος (died “for” all / “for” the world) — John 6:51; 1 Tim 2:6; 2 Cor 5:14-15.
4. Indefinite relative pronouns — ὅστις, ὁ θέλων (“whosoever,” Rev 22:17; cf. John 3:15-16 in some TR manuscripts).
5. Second-person plural imperatives addressed to mixed crowds — “Repent ye” (Acts 2:38; 17:30), “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ” (Acts 16:31) given to unbelieving jailers, Gentile audiences, etc.

These constructions are impossible to reconcile with a strict “offer only to the elect” view unless one resorts to the “two wills” or “secret will” distinctions that many non-Calvinists (and even some moderate Calvinists) regard as special pleading.


So in the Textus Receptus KJV itself, the universal gospel call to every sinner without exception is not a rare doctrine — it is the dominant note sounded again and again.

Forgot to give you a direct link to Nick Sayer's YouTube channel livestream. If you are interested, here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/@RevolutionDebates/streams

Nick is friendly and encourages live comments on the video topics he does.
Adversarial off topic discussions eventually get banned of course.
But if you are interested in the Koine Greek and or the Textus Receptus issues, his is the #1 channel, in my book.
Granted, I do not agree with everything Nick says, but it is still very informative.



.....

 

[cv5]

Overall pretty good, brother.
I agree that the Calvinist cannot reconcile the truth of these verses in the Greek or English.

I use ChatGPT for Greek word for word breakdowns because I have a subscription. But I do try to confirm things in Perplexity because it confirms things with sources. However, Grok has given me false hypotheticals (I did not ask for) many times even providing sources that do not pan out. ChatGPT will sometimes give you false info., but it is not as common like with Grok in my view. Perplexity is probably my top favorite for general searches and double checking things because it provides sources for me to verify. I pretty much banned Grok. It let me down too many times. But that was my experience.



…..


……

Agree Grok is.....very spotty and many failures. ChatGPT likewise.

Definitely going to take your advice and try Perplexity. My Greek skills and scholarship are..... awful and I know it. So it can only get better from here

 

[Magenta]

Galatians 6 v 14 But as for me, may I never boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
Thank you for the inspiration @mailmandan ! .

 

[sawdust]

When the heart is opened and the mind is enlightened, that is regeneration. I see you are in troll mode too.

You're mistaken, that's not troll mode, that's not putting up with your rubbish mode.

Try answering the actual question. We were past born again and open heart surgery. What happens next?

I bolded the actual question I asked in my original post (below), I'm not interested in you answering the question you asked as a deflection.

I thought you said they had to born again to understand? So they have to be born again and have open heart surgery and then what? They choose to believe or does God make them believe with His irresistible grace?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I am sorry, but you are arguing against the Greek construction and the words "they might be saved" as if the KJV was wrong and the KJV translators were a bunch of morons until you came along.

that you believe I believe "the KJV was wrong and the KJV translators were a bunch of morons until [ I ] came along" does not mean I believe "the KJV was wrong" as you claim.

Also, you are arguing for the verb form and not the actual Greek word. Sorry, I am not buying into your higher Greek knowledge. Do you have any Bible that is your final Word authority besides the one that exists only in your own mind?

??? ... because I believe the key to understanding 2 Thes 2:10 is "received not" as opposed to what you believe is the key ("might be saved") ... you believe I make stuff up in my own mind???

you jump to faulty conclusions at the mere suggestion that "received not" is a key component in the verse.

Is there any Bible verse or passage that supports your "Choose Your Adventure Bible" mentality?

more uncalled for belittling on your part.

have you considered 1 Thessalonians 2:13?

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

they "received not" (same Greek words as 2 Thes 2:10) the Word of God as the word of men ... they received it as the Word of God which effectually works within those who believe.

If there is, I would like to see it. Are you fluent in Greek and an expert on Greek grammar?

are you?

Do you know more than Georgios Babiniotis?

do you?


I thought we had a nice discussion going ... sorry it turned to this sad state of affairs.

What does your Georgios Babiniotis have to say about déxomai ou (received not)?

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[cv5]

2Pet 3:9 reads:

2 Peter 3:10
9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any [of you] should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
ESV

I see that exegesis is not your forte. Notice the red bolded part. The text does not say "not wishing that anyone in the world should perish". But my clarifying edit fits the bill nicely, since "any" refers back to its antecedent "you" (Peter's original audience). And this is why Peter wrote that God is patient towards THEM -- not the world. It makes zero sense for God to be patient towards his saints when it's the world that he supposedly doesn't want to perish.

By the way, 2Peter's original audience was not the world. It is God's elect, i.e. the "you" in 2Pet 3:9.

You've got that all wrong.....

https://christianchat.com/threads/can-we-really-exercise-free-will.218061/post-5632629

2 Peter 3:9 KJV: “not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” Greek: πάντας εἰς μετάνοιαν χωρῆσαι

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Again, the context of 1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV is 1 Corinthians 2:10 KJV (which was contrasted with the deep things of God and not the gospel), and 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 KJV (the Corinthians were said to be carnal because they were justifying certain sins).

my understanding is that the Corinthians were carnal because they followed men rather than the Lord Jesus Christ ...

1 Corinthians 1:11-13 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?


1 Corinthians 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Because they were carnal, yes, sinful activities were going on in the church at Corinth.

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[reneweddaybyday]

So "hardened" = "darkened"?

According to Romans 1, it appears to me that the foolish heart being darkened is the first step to the heart being hardened.

Romans 1:16-32

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

For those who believe the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation, they receive the promise (salvation). The term from faith to faith ... the just shall live by faith ... means that the life of the born again one begins in faith and continues in faith. It's not from works to faith ... or from faith to works ... it is from faith to faith. Those who are born again continue in faith.


18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek = katechō] the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

The words "who hold" in vs 18 are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to suppress; hold back; restrain. When the Word of God is revealed, it is restrained, suppressed from reaching the heart of the unbeliever. They reject the truth. They reject God. According to vs 19, God clearly reveals Himself, but the unbeliever suppresses the truth in unrighteousness.


20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

The eternal power and Godhead is revealed, known, yet not glorified. They are unthankful ... then become vain (empty) in their imaginations (reasonings), and the foolish heart was darkened.

The foolish heart becoming darkened is only the first step, Rufus.


22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves

Because the foolish heart was darkened, they engage in idolatry and God gives them up to uncleanness ... which results in ...


25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient

Because they are given up to vile affections, they engage in practices which are against nature ... against God's design ... look at what we've got going on in our day and time.

They receive in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet ... they receive the adequate compensation for their error in turning from God by suppressing the truth in unrighteousness.


Because they are given over to a reprobate mind ...

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

In vs 32 it is stated that they know the judgment of God and they continue in their perverse behaviors ... they also have pleasure in them that do them.

They hate the believers who continuously point to God ... they turn to those who behave in the same manner they do.

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