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First you mention John 3:8, wherein it is stated one hears the sound of invisible wind and such is everyone born of the Spirit. But rather than accept the scriptures literal meaning, that when one is born of the Spirit there will be an accompanying sound, you give your interpretation that one can see "lives changed." Your interpretation is not consistent with what is stated.
The scripture you quote in Acts 9 does not specify that Paul spoke in tongues but does state he was filled with the Holy Ghost. How can one know what occurs when someone is filled with the Holy Ghost? Study All scriptures that pertain to receiving the Holy Ghost. In addition to the literal record stated by Jesus in John 3:8, the concept is firmly established by at least 3 other recorded scriptures (Acts 2:1-4, 10:44-48, 19:1-6) and implied by a fourth. (Acts 8:12-18) Also, researching further one will find that Paul himself said he spoke in tongues. (1 Cor 14:18)
You say, self created, God's word states otherwise:
"And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:3-4
People should choose to believe God's word.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
Wow. Look what the bible says happens when one is filled with the Holy Ghost:
"And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:2-4
"And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:2-4
John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb. Did he ever speak in tongues? NEVER
Jesus of Nazareth was filled with the Holy Spirit from His mother's womb, and then constantly and continuously. Did He ever speak in tongues? NEVER
So there is the clearest evidence that speaking in tongues has nothing to do with being filled with the Spirit. It is the least of the spiritual gifts, therefore Paul would have rather spoken 5 intelligible words of prophecy than 10,000 words in tongues. In any event, tongues would cease, and they did cease.
This was only one time in the bible. When the Holy Spirit came for Jesus into this world. As Jesus said.
I can interpret these tongues easily. That man is saying "IAMABLASPHEMER".
The scriptures I provided speak to the error in your understanding. But rather than address that you change the subject so I will comment on the points you bring up that have nothing to do with the NT rebirth.
The NT rebirth includes the infilling of the Holy Ghost as witnessed by the events on and after Pentecost. John the Baptist died long before the rebirth was initiated. And Jesus' death, burial and resurrection ushered in the NT rebirth experience:
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7
In addition, the NT rebirth experience of receiving the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues has nothing to do with operating in the Spiritual gift of tongues that Paul was referring to.
Spiritual gifts will cease when Jesus returns. God's uses His Spirit to flow through willing believers to impact and draw others to make a choice to serve Jesus. When Jesus returns the time to choose will have ended. There will no longer be a need for a word of wisdom or knowledge, a healing, a miracle, a prophecy, discerning of spirits, speaking or interpreting of tongues.
I agree that it is the first time that the Holy Ghost was poured into people. However, we see it happening again in these scripture verses: Acts 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6.
John
14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Most importantly, keep in mind that an imitation is not proof that the real thing does not exist. The bible must be our first source for instruction and understanding. (1 Cor 12)PennEd, you do have a knack for finding informative videos.....again very disturbing.
L
Locoponydirtman
Guest
I'm gonna try to answer point for point here if I can with out doing the quote for quote thing as I am doing this from my phone and that can become quite difficult.
First off, I am not a cessationist, therefore I will also answer the last point with the first. My affirmation of those (some not all) who do not speak in tongues as sincere and true worshippers of God, emphatically does not exclude those that do speak in tongues from being sincere and true worshippers of God. There most certainly are indeed many in both camps that are sincere lovers of the Lord and true worshippers.
I have indeed seen on this forum (not necessarily in this thread) that it was the case made that if one is truly saved the same speaks in tongues as a requirement. However I am not going to go back through all this forum and site references, (it's not that important to me). So I guess then it is hear say and thusly inadmissible. That said, I do believe that it is the implicit connotation of the original post of this thread.
I with few exception do not; speak in terms of all or none. Therefore it is not implied that I find all of those who speak in tongues to be hypocritical. There are certainly no more or less hypocritical people in either camp. Both have their fair share of hypocrites and true worshippers.
I don't know what adjectives that I used that are offensive, so I sincerely can not answer that.
I hope this clears everything up.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
Agree, 1 Cor is about languages, so if it does not meet the criteria for a language it is not a language.
7
7seasrekeyed
Guest
sorry. this does not work for me at all
people need...yes NEED...to stop...STOP saying those who speak in tongues believe that if you do not speak in tongues you are not saved
that has become a device used diligently by those who want to grab a hold of something to use as proof that those who speak in tongues are all wrong
I don't care about hypocrites in the camp. the tents are full.
Paul makes it clear that those speaking in an unknown tongue are doing so through the operation of the spirit. Their spirit is conversing with God:
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 1 Cor 14:2
Paul also says that when he prays in an unknown tongue his understanding is unfruitful. If he is speaking a language he knows why would he not understand what he is saying?:
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 1 Cor 14:14
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, 1 Cor 14:18-19
If what you are expressing is that Paul is referring to people speaking known languages, just not languages known to the individual, that could be possible. But would not change the fact that it is being done supernaturally through the operation of the Spirit.
If this is the case, it would be impossible to ascertain if one's speaking in tongues were authentic or not. It would be virtually impossible when one considers that according to sources on the Internet "there are roughly 6,500 spoken languages in the world today. However, about 2,000 of those languages have fewer than 1,000 speakers."
If unknown tongues are current and past languages spoken throughout the world God certainly has a variety to choose from to impart edification to His church.
L
Locoponydirtman
Guest
The op of this thread does indeed imply by connotation that if one is saved he will speak in tongues.
Those that say it never say it explicitly they only say it implicitly.
And that in no way implies that everyone who speaks in tongues also believes the same thing.
And also in no way implies that you have done or said anything of the sort.
7
7seasrekeyed
Guest
really?
I didn't see that at all. he seemed to say that you will have power as described in scripture
I don't even agree with all the wording. but I think you are seeing what is not there
I don't find the op worded well, but it seems to me he was basically trying to say many do not follow the NT examples
I don't find anything wrong in that statement if that is what was being said
well, your implicit is not everyone's implicit
