Are Former Christians Who Later Became Murderers and Anti-Christians Still Saved?

[arthurfleminger]

There are numerous examples of Christians and their countries who abandon Jesus and God completely.

The peoples of Russia and Germany were once fervant Christians before they changed, become anti-Christs and murderers of innocents on a massive scale.

The BIG QUESTION is, " Are they still saved because they believed in Jesus at one time in their lives?

The first example I'll give is that of Communist Russia. Russia was a fervently Christian/Orthodox country for centuries. Then came the Communist uprising in which they turned from God/Jesus and became an atheist state. They murdered and persecuted many Christians. Former Christians in Russia fully supported this murder and turning from Jesus!

The second example is Christian Germany. When Hitler came to power, Germany was a Christian nation. But with the Nazis, Jews were hated/persecuted/murdered by the millions. Germans who used to be Christians could no longer accept Jesus and turned from Him. Why? Because Jesus was a Jew and the Nazi Germans couldn't accept a Jew for a God. They invented an Aryanized Jesus who wasn't Jewish at all. The German people turned from Jesus enmasse!

So, the question is, are these examples of peoples who once were true Christians and turned anti-Christ and murderers still saved because they once believed in Jesus?

Did Jesus forgive all these their sins and take them to heaven even though they were unrepentant sinners?

 

[Dirtman]

I'll leave the screwy history alone and answer the question.
No. Many turn away. The Bible warns of those who turn away.

 

[MsMediator]

Not sure but I think so, as long as they change and repent before death. Some people think even Hitler could have repented. Remember Paul, imagine what he might do if he had guns and tanks, etc.

 

[Magenta]

The BIG QUESTION is, " Are they still saved because they believed in Jesus at one time in their lives?

How do you know they truly believed?

America used to be called a Christian nation. Were all believers?

Being a "good person" and/or living by so-called Christian principles is not the prerequisite for salvation.

1 John 2:19
And then, there is always that ^

 

[Runningman]

There are numerous examples of Christians and their countries who abandon Jesus and God completely.

The peoples of Russia and Germany were once fervant Christians before they changed, become anti-Christs and murderers of innocents on a massive scale.

The BIG QUESTION is, " Are they still saved because they believed in Jesus at one time in their lives?

The first example I'll give is that of Communist Russia. Russia was a fervently Christian/Orthodox country for centuries. Then came the Communist uprising in which they turned from God/Jesus and became an atheist state. They murdered and persecuted many Christians. Former Christians in Russia fully supported this murder and turning from Jesus!

The second example is Christian Germany. When Hitler came to power, Germany was a Christian nation. But with the Nazis, Jews were hated/persecuted/murdered by the millions. Germans who used to be Christians could no longer accept Jesus and turned from Him. Why? Because Jesus was a Jew and the Nazi Germans couldn't accept a Jew for a God. They invented an Aryanized Jesus who wasn't Jewish at all. The German people turned from Jesus enmasse!

So, the question is, are these examples of peoples who once were true Christians and turned anti-Christ and murderers still saved because they once believed in Jesus?

Did Jesus forgive all these their sins and take them to heaven even though they were unrepentant sinners?

Jesus proclaimed that murder is a lot more spiritual than the physical act itself. Even anger can be equal to murder. I don’t think Jesus is talking about any kind of anger, but the kind that results in evil thoughts and desires about someone.

One can “be angry and sin not” but one can be angry and attack someone with insults and threats. Or even wishing death on someone. I think Jesus is saying be extremely careful about being angry, it can lead to sin.

Matthew 5:21,22
21You have heard that it was said to the ancients, ‘Do not murder’ and ‘Anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’
22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ will be subject to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be subject to the fire of hell.

So my question of reflection is, have we as Christians have been so angry at someone that we could have possibly fallen under the judgement Jesus spoke of?

 

[ResidentAlien]

If they abandoned their faith in the Lord then no, they won't be saved. It's hard to imagine a scenario where someone has faith in Him yet becomes actively anti-Christian.

Once saved always saved is one of the most harmful doctrines ever to infect the body of Christ.

 

[persistent]

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

 

[arthurfleminger]

How do you know they truly believed?

America used to be called a Christian nation. Were all believers?

Being a "good person" and/or living by so-called Christian principles is not the prerequisite for salvation.

1 John 2:19
And then, there is always that ^

You ask, how did we know that they truly believed? In Communist Russia and Nazi Germany there were hundreds of millions who became pagans/murders/anti-Christs. Surely, out of hundreds of millions there were some who truly believed and had faith in Jesusi and who wouldd abandon that faith.

But, at one time in their lives, their faith in Jesus was as strong as yours or mine. But they abandoned it. Your question, "How do we know if they truly believed." is sort of a cop out. Out of hundreds of millions, truly some did believe before they abandoned Jesus.

They gave up their faith to fit into their atheist Communist or nazi Hitlarian societies because they preferred them and chose them over Jesus.

 

[arthurfleminger]

You ask, how did we know that they truly believed? In Communist Russia and Nazi Germany there were hundreds of millions who became pagans/murders/anti-Christs. Surely, out of hundreds of millions there were some who truly believed and had faith in Jesusi and who wouldd abandon that faith.

But, at one time in their lives, their faith in Jesus was as strong as yours or mine. But they abandoned it. Your question, "How do we know if they truly believed." is sort of a cop out. Out of hundreds of millions, truly some did believe before they abandoned Jesus.

They gave up their faith to fit into their atheist Communist or nazi Hitlarian societies because they preferred them and chose them over Jesus.

And yet, many insist that those who abandoned Jesus were saved. Hmmmmmmmmm??????

 

[Randy4u2c]

There are numerous examples of Christians and their countries who abandon Jesus and God completely.

The peoples of Russia and Germany were once fervant Christians before they changed, become anti-Christs and murderers of innocents on a massive scale.

The BIG QUESTION is, " Are they still saved because they believed in Jesus at one time in their lives?

The first example I'll give is that of Communist Russia. Russia was a fervently Christian/Orthodox country for centuries. Then came the Communist uprising in which they turned from God/Jesus and became an atheist state. They murdered and persecuted many Christians. Former Christians in Russia fully supported this murder and turning from Jesus!

The second example is Christian Germany. When Hitler came to power, Germany was a Christian nation. But with the Nazis, Jews were hated/persecuted/murdered by the millions. Germans who used to be Christians could no longer accept Jesus and turned from Him. Why? Because Jesus was a Jew and the Nazi Germans couldn't accept a Jew for a God. They invented an Aryanized Jesus who wasn't Jewish at all. The German people turned from Jesus enmasse!

So, the question is, are these examples of peoples who once were true Christians and turned anti-Christ and murderers still saved because they once believed in Jesus?

Did Jesus forgive all these their sins and take them to heaven even though they were unrepentant sinners?

The Lord has the ability to forgive all sins if they believe upon his salvation and truly repent for what they have done, but I John 3:15 states that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. The murderer must be judged in heaven before the Lord and the one he/she murdered.

 

[Dino246]

There are numerous examples of Christians and their countries who abandon Jesus and God completely.

The peoples of Russia and Germany were once fervant Christians before they changed, become anti-Christs and murderers of innocents on a massive scale.

The BIG QUESTION is, " Are they still saved because they believed in Jesus at one time in their lives?

The first example I'll give is that of Communist Russia. Russia was a fervently Christian/Orthodox country for centuries. Then came the Communist uprising in which they turned from God/Jesus and became an atheist state. They murdered and persecuted many Christians. Former Christians in Russia fully supported this murder and turning from Jesus!

The second example is Christian Germany. When Hitler came to power, Germany was a Christian nation. But with the Nazis, Jews were hated/persecuted/murdered by the millions. Germans who used to be Christians could no longer accept Jesus and turned from Him. Why? Because Jesus was a Jew and the Nazi Germans couldn't accept a Jew for a God. They invented an Aryanized Jesus who wasn't Jewish at all. The German people turned from Jesus enmasse!

So, the question is, are these examples of peoples who once were true Christians and turned anti-Christ and murderers still saved because they once believed in Jesus?

Did Jesus forgive all these their sins and take them to heaven even though they were unrepentant sinners?

The primary problem with your scenario is that you assume individual Christians became murderers and anti-Christian. That's unsupportable. Yes, Germany and Russia were strongly Christian, but that doesn't mean individual Christians were actively responsible either for the change or for the subsequent murders. Yes, people who claim Christian faith might have done such things... but did they have the Holy Spirit within them? I doubt it. Many people today claim to be Christian... and simply aren't. JW's, Mormons, many secular people, Catholics, and even adherents of Christian churches fall into this category.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There are numerous examples of Christians and their countries who abandon Jesus and God completely.

The peoples of Russia and Germany were once fervant Christians before they changed, become anti-Christs and murderers of innocents on a massive scale.

The BIG QUESTION is, " Are they still saved because they believed in Jesus at one time in their lives?

The first example I'll give is that of Communist Russia. Russia was a fervently Christian/Orthodox country for centuries. Then came the Communist uprising in which they turned from God/Jesus and became an atheist state. They murdered and persecuted many Christians. Former Christians in Russia fully supported this murder and turning from Jesus!

The second example is Christian Germany. When Hitler came to power, Germany was a Christian nation. But with the Nazis, Jews were hated/persecuted/murdered by the millions. Germans who used to be Christians could no longer accept Jesus and turned from Him. Why? Because Jesus was a Jew and the Nazi Germans couldn't accept a Jew for a God. They invented an Aryanized Jesus who wasn't Jewish at all. The German people turned from Jesus enmasse!

So, the question is, are these examples of peoples who once were true Christians and turned anti-Christ and murderers still saved because they once believed in Jesus?

Did Jesus forgive all these their sins and take them to heaven even though they were unrepentant sinners?

The biblical answer is yes. Why? Because Jesus died for ALL the sins of everyone.

But, more than that, He clearly taught eternal security.

In John 5:24 He said that whoever believes HAS (possesses) eternal life. This means the MOMENT of saving faith in Christ, the believer possesses eternal life.

Then, in John 10:28, Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. And He added NO conditions to recipients of eternal life in order to never perish.

So, from the moment of faith in Christ, the person shall never perish.

Paul also taught eternal security. Romans 8:38 - For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,

The phrase "nor the future" cannot exclude any particular 'condition" or Paul would have had to list exceptions.

While eternal security may be a rather untasteful idea, that would be because such people have no idea what grace is about.

Man can't do anything to be saved, and man can't do anything to lose salvation. Grace means unmerited favor. Or unearned favor.

There are many passages that teach eternal security, but Jn 5:24 with 10:28 are the clearest.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I need to add one more thing to the doctrine of eternal security. We all know that those who have never believed will be condemned and be cast into the LOF. But that's not really the issue.

As the OP laid out, what about those who believed at one time and then, for whatever reason, left the faith. Arminians are quick to say that they are now unbelievers and therefore will be condemned as an unbeliever.

But, is this true? Does the Bible teach this? No, it doesn't.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Both verses teach the same thing. Those who "have not believed" will be condemned. So, what does that mean? It means that those who "have not believed" have NEVER believed.

So, both verses clearly state that condemnation will be for those who NEVER believed.

So, whatever the future holds (Rom 8:38), cannot remove one's salvation. Once a person is given the gift of eternal life (Jn 5:24, 10:28), Jesus said that recipient shall never perish.

However, Arminians view eternal security as an encouragement to live it up and sin like hell. Well, like coins, our eternal security has 2 sides as well.

Heads: faithful and obedient believers will be blessed in time and rewarded in eternity.

Tails: faithless and disobedient believers will lose blessings in time and lose reward in eternity and WILL FACE God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11).

This is no small potatoes. Paul explained WHY "many of the believers in Corinth were weak and sick, and a number of them had died". It was for abuse of the Lord's table. However, the principle is the same for any disobedience/unfaithfulness. Misery.

So, to my Arminian brothers, no one gets away with anything! If they lose faith, or get into open rebellion and sin, whether you can see it or not, they ARE miserable. They may deceive themselves by all the "fun" they may be having, but in their tiny little brains, they are NOT happy or content. For this reason, many simply "party harder" in order to feel better, which won't work, of course.

At some point, if God allows them to live miserably long enough, they, like the idiot prodigal, will "come to their senses" and confess their sins, and repent (turn back to the Lord).

To my Calvinist brothers, Jesus clearly indicated that a believer may not persevere in the faith. Luke 8:13 and the second soil. Too many Calvinists simply dismiss that person as one who never believed "savingly". Unfortunately, no Calvinist can convincingly explain what that means. The Bible never speaks of an unsaving faith or belief in Christ.

I know, I know. You'll pull up 1 Cor 15:1-3. The words "in vain" in the Greek mean "without reason". iow, all faith must have an object in which to believe or trust in. If there is no object of faith, there is no salvation.

The very object of faith in Christ is for salvation, meaning avoiding the LOF and living with God forever.

There. I think that covers everything.

 

[Polar]

The second example is Christian Germany. When Hitler came to power, Germany was a Christian nation. But with the Nazis, Jews were hated/persecuted/murdered by the millions. Germans who used to be Christians could no longer accept Jesus and turned from Him. Why? Because Jesus was a Jew and the Nazi Germans couldn't accept a Jew for a God. They invented an Aryanized Jesus who wasn't Jewish at all. The German people turned from Jesus enmasse!

One thing to remember, there really is no such thing as a 'Christian nation'

The others are that going to church does not make you a Christian, being baptized as an infant does not make you a Christian, and so on.

The other thing, is that Germany was not referred to as a Christian...do you have a source for that?

A census in May 1939, six years into the Nazi era[1] and after the annexation of mostly Catholic Austria and mostly Catholic Czechoslovakia[2] into Germany, indicates[3] that 54% of the population considered itself Protestant, 40% considered itself Catholic, 3.5% self-identified as Gottgläubig[4] (lit. "believing in God"),[5] and 1.5% as "atheist".[4] Protestants voted for the Nazi Party and made up its membership more than Catholics did.[6][7][8][9][10]
Smaller religious minorities such as the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Baháʼí Faith were banned in Germany, while the eradication of Judaism was attempted along with the genocide of its adherents. The Salvation Army and the Seventh-day Adventist Church both disappeared from Germany, while astrologers, healers, fortune tellers, and witchcraft were all banned. However, the small pagan "German Faith Movement" supported the Nazis.[11] Some religious minority groups had a more complicated relationship with the new state, for example the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) withdrew its missionaries from Germany and Czechoslovakia in 1938, but German LDS church branches were permitted to continue to operate throughout the war, however, they were forced to make some changes in their structure and teachings.[
source

the article is kind of long, but as it speaks of statistics and census, prob pretty accurate

 

[arthurfleminger]

The Lord has the ability to forgive all sins if they believe upon his salvation and truly repent for what they have done, but I John 3:15 states that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. The murderer must be judged in heaven before the Lord and the one he/she murdered.

Does the Lord forgive unrepentant sins/sinners?

 

[Magenta]

You ask, how did we know that they truly believed?

I asked no such thing. And the fact is, you have no idea whether all those people believed, or not.

 

[arthurfleminger]

I asked no such thing. And the fact is, you have no idea whether all those people believed, or not.

You didd ask, check the top of your post #4 on this thread.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Randy4u2c said:
The Lord has the ability to forgive all sins if they believe upon his salvation and truly repent for what they have done, but I John 3:15 states that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. The murderer must be judged in heaven before the Lord and the one he/she murdered.

Does the Lord forgive unrepentant sins/sinners?

Jesus Christ paid the sin debt for everyone. Forgiveness of sins per 1 John 1:9 is for cleansing so fellowship with the Lord can resume.

Please read post #13.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

In John 5:24 He said that whoever believes HAS (possesses) eternal life. This means the MOMENT of saving faith in Christ, the believer possesses eternal life.

24 “Amen, amen I tell you, whoever hears My word and trusts the One who sent Me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed over from death into life.

One must [[TRUST]] God.

those who Hear but never TRUST become Satan Worshipers, Murderers, Thieves. THEY, do not have Eternal Life!

Then, in John 10:28, Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. And He added NO conditions to recipients of eternal life in order to never perish.

you spend a lot of time TWISTING the Holy Word of God!!

25 Yeshua answered them, “I told you, but you don’t believe! The works I do in My Father’s name testify concerning Me.
26 But you don’t believe, because you are not My sheep.
27 My sheep hear My voice. I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life! They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand

 

[FreeGrace2]

24 “Amen, amen I tell you, whoever hears My word and trusts the One who sent Me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed over from death into life.

One must [[TRUST]] God.

Amen! That is what believing is.

those who Hear but never TRUST become Satan Worshipers, Murderers, Thieves. THEY, do not have Eternal Life!

Right!

you spend a lot of time TWISTING the Holy Word of God!!

25 Yeshua answered them, “I told you, but you don’t believe! The works I do in My Father’s name testify concerning Me.
26 But you don’t believe, because you are not My sheep.
27 My sheep hear My voice. I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life! They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand

Nope. If you are fluent in the English language, you will KNOW that v.27 is NOT a condition for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to not perish.

So, really, it is YOU who are trying to twist the Holy Word of God by trying to force v.27 into a condition for recipients to meet.

v.27 is a description of WHAT believers DO, or OUGHT TO DO. It is NOT a condition to be fulfilled in order to never perish.

v.28 is a complete thought. Those given eternal life shall never perish.

So, Jesus was clear about eternal security. From the MOMENT of saving faith, the believer is GUARANTEED to never perish.

Salvation is all based on what Jesus does. By giving the free gift of eternal life, the recipient shall never perish.

If you disagree, then you are demonstrating that you are NOT reading the verses correctly.