The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

studier said:

Interlineated answers.

Click to expand...

I disagree that they are being saved. They are already saved and learning how to live as saved people. This is much the same as the law in the OT. God chose Israel as His people, and gave them the law to have them live as His people. The law being on the hearts of God's people now, and the Holy Spirit indwelling them, God has merely to will and to do of His good pleasure to show His people how to live as His people.
The idea that our efforts in any way contribute to our salvation is false. Our efforts can only quicken or lengthen the time it takes God to do His work, but His work is done by Him alone. And He will conform us to the image of Christ with our cooperation or our chastening and consequent cooperation.

You simply don't understand what God is teaching in the passage.

Jimbone said:

Stop acting like you're being fair minded and "above the petty squabbles of the peasants below". You don't have full understanding of the other side of the argument, at least not displayed anywhere on here for us to see. There is no way you can have such a reasoned and unapproachable, doctrine work out, that is heads and shoulders above the other side of the argument, when I've never seen you even accurately represent it. At least not here.

Your argument can be summed up by "you think man plays a necessary role is salvation", and it would follow, that men have a reason to boast about salvation if this is true. I could not disagree more. We don't. You believe it's not all God saving us, you teach that man HAS to do his part to be saved, yet can't tell anyone what exactly it is that we have to do. You talk out of both sides of your mouth and act like it's us with the problem. Sad. Not once have I ever seen you describe or represent the opposite viewpoint accurately, so to pretend that because you post a lot of scripture in your comments, that you're so far above this argument that you have it nailed to the floor, would be funny to me if it wasn't so tragic.

Click to expand...

All I can think of to say, is 'another bone from Jim'.

Dear Jimbone. I've never said I'm above the petty squabbles. It's clear from some of my responses that I get sucked into them at times very easily. Hopefully you'll give me a little room and notice how I've repetitively attempted to bring this down to as deep a review of Scripture that we can get to in a forum like this.

No, I don't have this all worked out, but I was trained and ordained to teach under one of the traditions being put forth here. And I have read many exegetical studies in the "scholarly" realm on this issue on most if not all sides of the debate. So, I have studied a wide sample of teachings on the matter, albeit it's been a while mostly because I don't find it to be one of my main interests and the debates about it are at about the same level of emotional intensity as Eschatological discussions. There's never anything close to a resolution and the same points are repeated continuously.

Honestly, you're only capable of summarizing my argument as much as your level of understanding is and as much as I've even said what my position is. And from your limited posting of Scripture or maybe no such posting, coupled with your position on one side of the debate and virtually meaningless remarks about how others who interpret or have been taught differently than you remotely think we are in a position to or taking a position that boasts, just shows me you have no clue what's being said.

As I've said to others, the Ignore function on this forum works well.

Forgive me for approaching you if I in fact did so.

Cameron143 said:

I disagree that they are being saved.

Click to expand...

I thought you had moved on a while ago.

OK. Do you think Salvation is a Process?

studier said:

I thought you had moved on a while ago.

OK. Do you think Salvation is a Process?

Click to expand...

Salvation takes place in a moment in time. The relationship that comes about as a result of it is a process.

studier said:

please learn how to quote

Click to expand...

Put on a show.

If anyone here is putting on a show it is you

You say we must work. I ask you numerous times what work. and you do nto answer.
You try to tell others what they believe anbd what they are doing. and fail to take into account it may just be you who are doing this. and then get upset when people call you out on it.
You say your not trying to earn salvation. yet every post you make is work work work. then you get upset when people call you out for trying to earn your salvation.

Like I said, you said we have to obey all of Gods commands. well i agree. The issue is we have failed to do so. and are satill failing to do so (unless we are without sin)(so not only are we unable to meet the standards you say we must meet. But we can not meet Gods standard.

which is why we need saved, and why we need kept saved. because no matter how hard we try. we can sin and fall short of Gods glory

Cameron143 said:

Salvation takes place in a moment in time. The relationship that comes about as a result of it is a process.

Click to expand...

remember, he is not trying to earn his salvation (so he says)

Believer08 said:

@studier, according to these guys, they have it being IMPOSSIBLE for a saved individual to trample the Son of God underfoot, count the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insult the Spirit of grace, yet, the Holy Spirit who inspired the writer of Hebrews said it happened!!!

Heb. 10:29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

To be SANCTIFIED BY the BLOOD of the COVENANT is CLEARLY referring to someone who was SAVED, but NOW is LOST.

If someone is sanctified by the blood of the covenant, then it’s referring to Jesus’s NEW COVENANT that He shed His blood for many for the remission of sins!! (Mt. 26:28)

Click to expand...

Heb10 IMO is another tough one for the simplistic belief group. Even within it 10:25 when the writer is talking about assembling, the assembling is for literally provoking one another to love and good works which is another example of Christian growth in line with Paul's Phil2:12 command to accomplish our salvation with fear and trembling. As Paul continues in Phil3 he's calling people who are not maturing and further advancing to perfection - which he parallels to arriving at the resurrection - enemies of Christ's cross.

This is more that tells me that those who are so stuck on the entrance into the Salvation Process per God's Plan have lost the focus of what Salvation is ultimately all about - producing adult sons, matured sons, continually exerting themselves to attain to the high calling of God in Christ Jesus - to arrive at the resurrection.

So, if such who do not see this in the cross and are not in this pursuit are enemies of the cross, then who are those who peel of and trample Jesus Christ under foot?

It's this pursuit that has always interested me. This wrangling about doing or not doing something is tragic.

Again, just to make it clear - if at all possible - separate from Jesus Christ the Vine - we can do NOTHING. But with God, all things are possible.

Everlasting-Grace said:

Put on a show.

If anyone here is putting on a show it is you

You say we must work. I ask you numerous times what work. and you do nto answer.
You try to tell others what they believe anbd what they are doing. and fail to take into account it may just be you who are doing this. and then get upset when people call you out on it.
You say your not trying to earn salvation. yet every post you make is work work work. then you get upset when people call you out for trying to earn your salvation.

Like I said, you said we have to obey all of Gods commands. well i agree. The issue is we have failed to do so. and are satill failing to do so (unless we are without sin)(so not only are we unable to meet the standards you say we must meet. But we can not meet Gods standard.

which is why we need saved, and why we need kept saved. because no matter how hard we try. we can sin and fall short of Gods glory

Click to expand...

Got Scripture, pup.

Everlasting-Grace said:

remember, he is not trying to earn his salvation (so he says)

Click to expand...

I think he's sincere in His pursuit of God. I also think he is sincerely wrong about the passage in view.

Cameron143 said:

Salvation takes place in a moment in time. The relationship that comes about as a result of it is a process.

Click to expand...

The entrance into the Process happens when one [truly] believes.

Whether or not one can think they entered but really didn't and/or enter then walk away from the entrance or Process is the topic of the OP.

So, you don't believe Salvation is a Process.

Then you are untaught in the language of salvation in the NC. You've never heard or have rejected salvation taught in the concepts of 'were saved' > 'are being saved' > 'will be saved"? Or Salvation in 3 phases? Or anything similar?

Cameron143 said:

I think he's sincere in His pursuit of God. I also think he is sincerely wrong about the passage in view.

Click to expand...

Thanks in part but also says one of the ones who changes the language of the verse.

What's also fun here is watching the enemy of my enemy is my friend. One of you believes in cooperation with God and the other decries it as meritorious works.

Believer08 said:

Acts 15:11; Rom. 5:9; 1 Cor. 13:15 says “shall be saved”

Click to expand...

Every instance of usage of "save" in any tense, needs to be look at in context apart from the blinders of the typical "are you saved" question, for example.

Look at the Rom5:9 you've posted: Justified is past - salvation is future. All such instruction needs to be reasoned and if we don't see the Salvation Process, we're going to get stuck and/or we're going to start changing the language of the Scripture.

Different forms and tenses and contexts of the words, 'save' and 'salvation' occur as I recall more than 150+ times in the NC. I recall in studying them all in context the impression that the NC is most often looking through the entrance and focusing on the Christian in the Salvation Process looking forward to the end of the Process.

studier said:

The entrance into the Process happens when one [truly] believes.

Whether or not one can think they entered but really didn't and/or enter then walk away from the entrance or Process is the topic of the OP.

So, you don't believe Salvation is a Process.

Then you are untaught in the language of salvation in the NC. You've never heard or have rejected salvation taught in the concepts of 'were saved' > 'are being saved' > 'will be saved"? Or Salvation in 3 phases? Or anything similar?

Click to expand...

Salvation occurs when one believes. An individual is born from above, their heart having been circumcised have been adopted into the family of God. The Holy Spirit takes up residence and He is the deposit and assurance that what God has begun and promised us will come to fruition.
Out of that relationship comes a lifetime of ongoing changes, but salvation occurs once. It is built upon, filled out, and more fully and more deeply experienced, but it only occurs once in terms of being placed into Christ.

studier said:

Thanks in part but also says one of the ones who changes the language of the verse.

What's also fun here is watching the enemy of my enemy is my friend. One of you believes in cooperation with God and the other decries it as meritorious works.

Click to expand...

I decry it to as a means of salvation. I simply recognize it as a part of sanctification.

studier said:

Projection or self-inclusion also?

Click to expand...

Because they do not obey the commands of Paul against arguing and quarreling?

GWH said:

Because they do not obey the commands of Paul against arguing and quarreling?

Click to expand...

Yes, with self-inclusion.

Everlasting-Grace said:

Bingo.

God gave me eternal life. Said he would never leave nor forsake me, And he has given me the spirit as a seal or pledge until the day he raises me from the dead.

But because I get some wim and want to hurt myself. he will comply and take all these things back.

Click to expand...

He never said that.

Cameron143 said:

Salvation occurs when one believes. An individual is born from above, their heart having been circumcised have been adopted into the family of God. The Holy Spirit takes up residence and He is the deposit and assurance that what God has begun and promised us will come to fruition.
Out of that relationship comes a lifetime of ongoing changes, but salvation occurs once. It is built upon, filled out, and more fully and more deeply experienced, but it only occurs once in terms of being placed into Christ.

Click to expand...

Understood.