The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[studier]

I have no idea what you are talking about. You are introducing terms not in the passage.

Did you go back to post #757 and read the lexical definition from BDAG that includes "accomplish"? I've also explained in this thread why I agree with BDAG's work on this intensified verb form.

Did you read in that same post how Merriam-Webster defines "work out" as "to bring about by labor and exertion"

As I said to @HeIsHere, the mental block on this topic is mind-boggling.

Paul said salvation, but he didn't mean salvation.

God inspired the word "salvation" but He didn't mean salvation.

God and Paul commanded a word that means "accomplish" but they didn't mean accomplish.

God and Paul commanded a word that means "work out" but this phrase doesn't mean to bring about by labor and exertion.

Extraordinary...

 

[Believer08]

Did you go back to post #757 and read the lexical definition from BDAG that includes "accomplish"? I've also explained in this thread why I agree with BDAG's work on this intensified verb form.

Did you read in that same post how Merriam-Webster defines "work out" as "to bring about by labor and exertion"

As I said to @HeIsHere, the mental block on this topic is mind-boggling.

Paul said salvation, but he didn't mean salvation.

God inspired the word "salvation" but He didn't mean salvation.

God and Paul commanded a word that means "accomplish" but they didn't mean accomplish.

God and Paul commanded a word that means "work out" but this phrase doesn't mean to bring about by labor and exertion.

Extraordinary...

Amen…Paul said “fallen from grace” but he didn’t mean fallen from grace…

 

[studier]

Once again, WHAT WORKS DO I NEED TO DO.

If you're a Christian, then whatever God commands, like Phil2:12-13. If you're not so doing, then maybe you never believed or have apostatized or maybe will live in a pup tent in eternity. Some more work in the Text may draw this out.

Based upon your prior denigration re: cooperating with God and your fear of getting deeper into the language and structure of the Text with someone who may well be able to note potential errors and discrepancies in your work, it has to remain a mystery who you are in Christ. Maybe you walked an aisle 40 years ago and were promised a mansion for doing so. There are many possibilities these days.

 

[studier]

Amen…Paul said “fallen from grace” but he didn’t mean fallen from grace…

And then with all Paul's anathema and cutting off the whole thing language re; a false gospel that would pull away those who began in Spirit. I suppose we just set aside his passion and urgency and sluff it off - no big deal...no danger here...your mansion may have one less room.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

It’s a mess having to unravel a mess…they will take you on a never ending trail that leads to nothing…all to believe error and lies…

again, how do you know this is not you.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

So if salvation is entirely of God’s and we don’t have a choice in the matter…then is it also entirely of God’s that He chooses hell for whoever He wants to go there and they have no choice in that as well?

He gave us the answer

whoever sees and believes is not condemned

whoever does not believe is condemned already

These are jesus words..

 

[Lamar]

So the servant could never earn it. thus he could never lose it.


This does not make sense. why would you claim if you could lose something you did not earn?

Matt 18: 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

Again, Could he pay his debt? [/QUOTE]
Are you special?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Obedience is obedience and is directly correlated to faith in Rom10 and Heb3 at minimum. In Luke 17 Jesus taught that obedience is duty and expected as part of even miniscule faith. The resultant question should be what is rewarded, obedience or the work actually done in Faith-Obedience?

If you have the ability, then we can work this through the Text. We can actually look at it mostly in English until we get to Rom1 & 16 to discuss Paul's mission to the nations.

ok so again.

what particular works do I have to do to be saved?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Let's just put this statement on automatic repost. The empty charges are endless.

empty charges?

A person says he can lose salvation.

But he is not trying to earn it.

lol

I mean anyone can see the MAJOR contradiction here in any thing one is trying to earn or not earn

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

No. The correlation is in 1 direction. People get saved, they do the works prepared for them.

They think we must continue to work to be saved.

They can not fathom we have been saved, by grace part

 

[Jimbone]

Read again. What is a Christian being saved from?

The block Christians have had created in them from theological traditions is astounding. But this is what I saw decades ago and experimented with in teaching and on the street (so to speak).

Although many had been taught the tense-based language of Scripture re Salvation - were saved - are being saved - will be saved - and said they understood it, they were stuck on 'were saved' and wanted to argue clear language like Phil2:12. Same on this thread. Actually, the same on all repetitive threads I've seen on this topic. Also, many have never been taught how salvation is spoken of in many ways on the Text and adamantly call the tense reality heretical.

I'm willing to discuss Eternal Security with all sides using Scripture and not constructs. It would be nice to find resolution, whatever is the Truth. I for one think it'll take everyone letting go a bit and realizing others have a piece of it we don't.

Let me ask you a hypothetical question: What if I said I see assurance and never believed and apostasy in the Text? Do you think you'd be able to take me through the Text and clearly and accurately explain any error apart from carrying presupposition into the Text - a.k.a. eisegesis?

Stop acting like you're being fair minded and "above the petty squabbles of the peasants below". You don't have full understanding of the other side of the argument, at least not displayed anywhere on here for us to see. There is no way you can have such a reasoned and unapproachable, doctrine work out, that is heads and shoulders above the other side of the argument, when I've never seen you even accurately represent it. At least not here.

Your argument can be summed up by "you think man plays a necessary role is salvation", and it would follow, that men have a reason to boast about salvation if this is true. I could not disagree more. We don't. You believe it's not all God saving us, you teach that man HAS to do his part to be saved, yet can't tell anyone what exactly it is that we have to do. You talk out of both sides of your mouth and act like it's us with the problem. Sad. Not once have I ever seen you describe or represent the opposite viewpoint accurately, so to pretend that because you post a lot of scripture in your comments, that you're so far above this argument that you have it nailed to the floor, would be funny to me if it wasn't so tragic.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Did you read 2:8-9 first that says that faith is in opposition to works? Isn't that what much of this thread topic is repetitively about? If you want to stick with the Text re: the correlation of faith and works, then you should probably stick with that Text and say faith and good works...

Actually it says we are saved by grace. not works.. Faith is just the means to which grace is recieved.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

If you're a Christian, then whatever God commands, like Phil2:12-13. If you're not so doing, then maybe you never believed or have apostatized or maybe will live in a pup tent in eternity. Some more work in the Text may draw this out.

ok. So to be saved, we have to do everything God commands.

Have you done this?

Based upon your prior denigration re: cooperating with God and your fear of getting deeper into the language and structure of the Text with someone who may well be able to note potential errors and discrepancies in your work, it has to remain a mystery who you are in Christ. Maybe you walked an aisle 40 years ago and were promised a mansion for doing so. There are many possibilities these days.

No, I just wanted you to show what you think we have to do to be saved. You finally answered. we have to obey Gods commands.

ie, we are under law not under grace.

thank you

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

And then with all Paul's anathema and cutting off the whole thing language re; a false gospel that would pull away those who began in Spirit. I suppose we just set aside his passion and urgency and sluff it off - no big deal...no danger here...your mansion may have one less room.

I mean really.. removing ourselves from the equation is difficult..

The pharisees could nto do it either. thats why they crucified Christ

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Matt 18: 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

Again, Could he pay his debt?

Are you special?[/QUOTE]
No

I can't pay my debt, that's why I needed SAVED.

Because I can not earn it.

why do you think you can?

 

[Cameron143]

Did you go back to post #757 and read the lexical definition from BDAG that includes "accomplish"? I've also explained in this thread why I agree with BDAG's work on this intensified verb form.

Did you read in that same post how Merriam-Webster defines "work out" as "to bring about by labor and exertion"

As I said to @HeIsHere, the mental block on this topic is mind-boggling.

Paul said salvation, but he didn't mean salvation.

God inspired the word "salvation" but He didn't mean salvation.

God and Paul commanded a word that means "accomplish" but they didn't mean accomplish.

God and Paul commanded a word that means "work out" but this phrase doesn't mean to bring about by labor and exertion.

Extraordinary...

The subject is salvation. But it is not talking about the acquisition of salvation. These folks are already obeying. They are already saved. In light of this, Paul is teaching them how to live as one who is saved. It really is that simple. It's no different from Paul exhorting believers to put off the old man and put on the new man, except he exhorts them to live in regard to the work God is actively doing in them.

Do you experience this intimate relationship in which God is actively communicating to you the things He is doing? Do you have an awareness of God changing things about you and seeking your cooperation in the changes He is making? I assumed you did, but perhaps I am mistaken.

 

[studier]

The subject is salvation.

This is a step forward. Agreed and precisely what I've been saying

But it is not talking about the acquisition of salvation.

Agreed, and precisely what I've been saying. The command is to Christians (the saved) to accomplish their salvation with God providing His capacity for them to will and to work for His good pleasure.

These folks are already obeying.

Agreed and precisely what Paul says.

They are already saved

Agreed and they are being saved obeying God to accomplish their salvation...

Interlineated answers.

 

[Believer08]

@studier, according to these guys, they have it being IMPOSSIBLE for a saved individual to trample the Son of God underfoot, count the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insult the Spirit of grace, yet, the Holy Spirit who inspired the writer of Hebrews said it happened!!!

Heb. 10:29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

To be SANCTIFIED BY the BLOOD of the COVENANT is CLEARLY referring to someone who was SAVED, but NOW is LOST.

If someone is sanctified by the blood of the covenant, then it’s referring to Jesus’s NEW COVENANT that He shed His blood for many for the remission of sins!! (Mt. 26:28)

 

[Jimbone]

Did you go back to post #757 and read the lexical definition from BDAG that includes "accomplish"? I've also explained in this thread why I agree with BDAG's work on this intensified verb form.

Did you read in that same post how Merriam-Webster defines "work out" as "to bring about by labor and exertion"

As I said to @HeIsHere, the mental block on this topic is mind-boggling.

Paul said salvation, but he didn't mean salvation.

God inspired the word "salvation" but He didn't mean salvation.

God and Paul commanded a word that means "accomplish" but they didn't mean accomplish.

God and Paul commanded a word that means "work out" but this phrase doesn't mean to bring about by labor and exertion.

Extraordinary...

So glory to men right? After all there's so much you say we have to do to be saved. Do we even need to thank God? Maybe we do deserve glory for all the "working it out" and labor we have to do.

Again I do not understand the arguments to "de-glorify" God.

 

[studier]

ok. So to be saved, we have to do everything God commands.

Have you done this?

To be saved to the extent God desires for all of His Children, yes, I think it's a good idea to work with Him to accomplish all He has for us to do in the Salvation Process There are clearly varying levels of productivity.

Still here, still cooperating with Him as best I know and always asking to be reviewed and to be shown more. Some of the tests at this point are no longer as difficult and some of them are astoundingly deep and challenging. I'm much closer to the end of breath than when I began.

Honestly, I think it will ultimately boil down to thoughts and intents and mercy. It took our First-Born Brother to obey all perfectly. I think we all know how far from His example we have been and continue to be, yet having been obedient, we continue the Faith-Obedience to accomplish our salvation with fear and trembling as we're commanded and find our capacities increased to both will and do what pleases Him.

No, I just wanted you to show what you think we have to do to be saved. You finally answered. we have to obey Gods commands.

ie, we are under law not under grace.

So, being in faith under grace obeying in Christ in Spirit the NC commands of Jesus Christ is being under [OC law] and not under grace? And you think I didn't know this tradition of interpretation. Silly pup.

What you've shown me is you put on a show for some and when challenged bow out under fallacious argumentation and avoidance.

6 As He also says in another place: "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek"; 7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, (Heb. 5:6-9 NKJ)

thank you

You bet.