Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

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Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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lol. Your the one who said it was a descriptive statment, Those who are saved DO persevere to the end.

Thats wrong.. We do nto persever.

second, God did give an iperitive to those who are reading his words (let the read understand) and actually giving them hope. if you persevere. You will be saved.
It is descriptive because it is declarative. It would be prescriptive if it was an imperative.

Those who read and understand know the difference.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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He will leave the 99 in the fold, and go find the 1 :)
Who are the 99?
Already know the answer. Thank you Mr. Chronister.

Luk 15:7
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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MM wrote:
I really don't understand what your point in all this really is in relation to what I said. The instrument of Law was and is a good thing, but like you said, it could not and cannot save anyone. Yes. We all agree with that, so can we get past that? The Law, as a "schoolmaster" is a good thing in that regard, and in many others, such as us knowing what sin is by the Law, so please don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, as the proverbial saying goes. The good news (gospel) within the Law, and that characterizes the Law, is that it the means by which sin is identified and known.

If you're going nit-pic every statement and nuance, then we will get nowhere.


But you forget that the Law actually aroused and stirred up sinful passions due to the weakness of the flesh, which is why the Law could only condemn. Sin actually increased under the law! The Law can and never will save anyone. All the law could do is put people in bondage to it. All this is hardly good news!

Also, in this NC dispensation, one of the ministries of the Holy Spirit is to convict people of sin. One does not need the written code of Mosaic Law to know they are sinners, since all men intuitively know God's law, for God wrote the works of the law upon all men's hearts.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, so an interesting question i have is which spiritual tribe do you claim to be?
Never thought about it. All I really need to know is that I'm in one of them, which, I believe, I am.

but strictly speaking of the scripture, mention of 12 tribes is a very specifically Israelite terminology.
Disagree. Earthly Israel was intended to be a representation of spiritual Israel, which Israel, is the true; spiritual Israel was
never intended to be a representation of the earthly.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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God won't fail. He is omnipotent. No one can thwart anything He is determined must happen. We disagree on the number of things God has determined and will determine must happen.
God has clearly "determined" to save every soul that he gives to Christ (Mat 18:14; 2Pet 3:9). It's not God's will that any of his elect perish.
 

Rufus

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Preterism! I knew there was something off about your take on it all, and now we see what it is.

MM
Read Dan 9 and Mat 24 someday. A great deal of Mat 24 was pertinent to Jesus' generation, i.e. "this generation"will certainly not pass away until ALL these things have happened (Mat 24:34). And...the phrase "this generation" is used multiple times in Matthew's gospel and in every single case it means the the people who were alive when Jesus spoke his words.
 

Rufus

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5 of them never had any oil
they were never saved.

are you still saved now?

if you get knocked in the head and lose your memory, so you forget the gospel, does that mean you go to hell?

and what about now?
still saved?

crazy how at any second you could be damned
Now you're confusing people with "mere, incidental, trivial details". ;)
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Scripture plainly states that those God gives to Jesus will come to Him and those who come He will never cast out... He will lose none! Perhaps some think they are more powerful than Jesus? :unsure:
Well...you know how it is, sister. It's the whole "free" will thingy. And man is never viewed by such people as helpless and powerless.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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Well...you know how it is, sister. It's the whole "free" will thingy. And man is never viewed by such people as helpless and powerless.
Or even bad. He is shiny happy people all 'round, and good enough within his own right, according to some, to choose to
love God despite being hostile in his mind toward God, a slave to sin and lover of darkness, captive to the will of the devil!
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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Or even bad. He is shiny happy people all 'round, and good enough within his own right, according to some, to choose to
love God despite being hostile in his mind toward God, a slave to sin and lover of darkness, captive to the will of the devil!
The shiny people can do it with one hand tied behind their backs.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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5 of them never had any oil
they were never saved.
Correction:
They never TOOK THE OIL from Him Who OFFERED IT...........and He is the only One Who had it.
In other words, the foolish virgins REFUSED the gracious OFFER of the oil.

Total willful rejection. Total abject refusal. Turned their back and "went their own way".
 

enril

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Aug 18, 2024
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I've been asking who among you who was ever truly saved has ever lost their salvation?
I did. I was a christian, but I drifted away, and spent years without him, but rrecently re-discovered him, and I can tell you that I am saved, because now, somethings diffrent. I used to live in fear of dying and having done it wrong, but now I know I am saved and I can tell that the devil knows, because he has stopped giving me that, and now try's to get me to do other things.
 

enril

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if you think salvation can be lost. Your trusting self. Because you in effect claim God can and does fail
then is adam and eve sinning God falling? God gave humans choice. to do our own thing. he mostly nudges.
 

enril

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He said no one can snatch us out of his hands. Well last I checked. I am someone. So in fact. It says even i can not snatch myself out of his hands
I believe that this means we can't be stolen, but us choosing might be different. just trying to enlighten.
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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God has clearly "determined" to save every soul that he gives to Christ (Mat 18:14; 2Pet 3:9). It's not God's will that any of his elect perish.
Context, friend.

Matt. 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Matthew 18:14 refers to little children born innocent who eventually are tempted to go astray from their youth, like a straying sheep.

Being Evil From Youth
Genesis 8:21
Verse Concepts
The Lord smelled the soothing aroma; and the Lord said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Youth
Verse 14 refers to the fact that God does not want children to go astray in their youth, and vv. 6-9 warn the one who tempts them to do so is doing what Satan did to Adam and deserves a severe punishment. Nevertheless, the Son came to seek and save those who in their youth have been led astray from innocence. It is not God's will that any child perish, even when they end up going astray in their youth.

From this passage we could infer that every innocent child has been given to Christ as His sheep, and when they eventually go astray, it is not His will that they perish, but that they be sought and saved.
 

Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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then is adam and eve sinning God falling? God gave humans choice. to do our own thing. he mostly nudges.
Adam and Eve did not lose salvation. They were perfect. After they fell they had to be saved. And Gid did not fail them
yes God gave us a choice.
those who chose to trust him are no longer condemned. Those who do not trust him are condemned already
if Gid saves you he saves you. You can never be lost again. Unless he fails
 

Everlasting-Grace

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I believe that this means we can't be stolen, but us choosing might be different. just trying to enlighten.
It’s not different. You are not more powerful than God. If you think you can walk away and he will not leave the flock to bring you back. You do not know God very well
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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Then you should trust Gods promises

1. Look to the cross. Believe in him, and you will NEVER DIE, and yu have ETERNAL LIFE John 3)
2. Of all God has given him, he will lose nothing (john 6)
3. Believe in him, by seeing him at the cross. And in faith believing in him, and you will never perish, You will live forever. He also said you will be raised on the last day (john 6)
4. He said whoever hears and believes has eternal life and shall not come into judgment (john 5)
5. He said no one can snatch us out of his hands. Well last I checked. I am someone. So in fact. It says even i can not snatch myself out of his hands (praise God for this)

so who do you trust. yourself. Or God.

if you think salvation can be lost. Your trusting self. Because you in effect claim God can and does fail
I do trust His promises.
1. Keep on looking to the cross and keep on believing in Him (present imperatives) and uyou will never die and you will have aeonous life.
2. God has given Jesus the universe, i.e. everyTHING (Greek "pan"). He will restore it all on the last day.
3. Keep on believing in Him, by seeing Him at the cross. And in faith keep on believing in Him, and you will never perish. You will live forever. He will raise every human who has ever lived on the last day.
4. He said whoever keeps onhearing and keeps on believing has aeonous life and shall not come into judgment.
5. He said no one is able to seize us by force (Greek: harpazO) out of His hands. That does not include usbeing seduced into wandering astray out of His hand in pursuit of things we start putting ahead of following and serving Him.

I believe all these biblical promises, praise God!

I trust God to keep Hs promises. I don't trust myself to walk in love without Him.