Predestination is misunderstood...

Paul simply said what Jesus said when He was asked the same question. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, and this goes for your family as well. If they believe on the Lord they will be saved too"

What do I make of that?, it's simply the same gospel message we preach today. It has been the same simple message for thousands of years. I'm not sure what your trying to make of it here.

The big problem is, that the simple gospel message is the message has the stench of death to those who God hasn't chosen to save. They hated it 2000 years ago and killed the messenger and they still hate it even more today.

It begs the question, why the message is hated by some and loved by others. Are you suggesting that it comes down to a person IQ, so that the intelligent people will make the incredibly difficult choice between eternal paradise in heaven and eternal torment in hell fire.

I know is a very difficult choice and most choose hell, but I'm asking if you know why most of the top scientific minds in the world choose hell. It just doesn't make any sense, why the smart people call believers fools. I mean why is it, what determines who will believe and who will remain condemned to hell.

Calvin obviously taught this as biblically correct and I agree with him and reject the other "joint effort" Arminian view

Smart people call irrational unbelievers fools...

There are and have been believers that are genius. Paul was a genius.

And, Paul warned with tears that there were believers (yes, saved) even back then who were fools in their ability to reason.
Paul went as far as to call them "enemies of the cross of Christ."



Note: "whose god is their belly."

Paul was not talking about gluttony.

The word "belly" back then was used to mean what we today would say, "emotions."
Enemies of the cross are ruled by their emotions.... Being irrational and even idiotic in how they reason things out...
But? "they are saved."

Some of the greatest believers have been highly intelligent people. Its not something smart people are not.
Even Calvin had to be very smart to exegete the original languages as he did.... Same with Luther.

One does not have to be very smart to be saved. But, you must learn from those who are if we are to understand it correctly.

So be it....

grace and peace .................

TULIP was not Calvin. It was concocted by followers years after his death.
Yet, today we call it Calvinism.

I got the impression from your comments and others that I place my trust in John Calvin rather than another Man with the same initials Jesus Christ.

I would like to make it clear that I'm not a follower of men, I have only One Lord and savior an I follow Him only. That doesn't preclude me from being taught by God appointed Shepherds who teach and preach His Word faithfully.

According to the bible, the gospel is an offensive message. It cuts us to our core and forces us to see our true selves, you know that ugly old man who's always crying to have his lust fulfilled.

The seeker friendly, false gospel teaches that we're all essentially good. But we all make poor choices at times due to our environment. So we're not guilty of sin, due to diminished responsibility. We've all heard mothers plead for mercy during their sons murder trial, they tell the judge "Johnny is a good boy, he just got influenced by bad boys".

The seeker friendly gospel doesn't accept the bible doctrine of being born with a sin nature and the inability to turn from sin and repent. This is what divided the Church, man wants glory and praise by nature. So the joint effort gospel appeals to him. He refuses to ascribe all the glory and honor to God.

How are you being taught by John Calvin today???
Its the same limited thing over and over again....
John Calvin can not teach anyone face to face daily for every area of your life..

We all need pastors today that are constantly growing in knowledge and understanding in many areas, well beyond the limited teaching of TULIP.

All you are doing so far is remaining stuck withing the walls in your dogma box.. and challenging others to defy the little anyone can learn from it.
For all you ever talk about is what you think is salvation... and never enter beyond into the maturity level of understanding what God wants us to enter into after having salvation, as to glorify Christ.

Here is an example of what I speak:

(scroll down the page to start listening)
https://rbthieme.org/stream/special...essing_in_suffering&ref=blessing_in_suffering

Give it a listen....

grace and peace ...........

I don't agree that Paul was saying that those "who's god is their belly" were ever saved. He said "Who's end is destruction". So they were never saved. I took "the belly" as to describe, "Mammon" as it suggests that one is living for earthly pleasures, rather than serving God.

I wasn't trying to suggest that one must be very intelligent to choose to obey the gospel, and deny and forsake ones natural desire to fulfill their lust. I was asking a rhetorical question, as to why some made the wise choice of eternal paradise and others chose eternal torment in hell.

The only gospel version that makes sense is the one that says that the choice is Gods. Since He choses all kinds of weird and wonderful people from every tribe and ethnic group and from every level of intelligence.

The gospel also says that the things of God are foolishness to the natural man, neither can he receive them. So the inference there again is, the natural man cannot receive the gospel as it is foolishness to him.

Who is this mysterious natural man? it sounds like an unconverted man. The converted man is no longer a natural man, because his spiritual eyes have been opened.

Well Calvin became famous for refuting the works man centered gospel which Arminius taught. He cited the bible doctrines of election and predestination, to exposes Arminius. This divided the Church into two camps and it has remained divided over the same issue to this day.

I know that Calvin didn't assemble the verses which became known as the TULIP table, but all those verses supported his argument against the Arminianism. And other created the table of verses as a summary of what Calvin's interpretation of the gospel.

We don't have a consensus in the Church as to who's interpretation was right and who's was wrong. The Church remains divided over these two gospel interpretations to this day.

Because Calvinists keep changing it to read "be saved and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ".

It simply is not scriptural.

I wanted to find out what this Ministry believes before I listen, but he doesn't disclose what he believes. So I can't trust a person who hides his identity.
A proper Ministry would have a statement of faith, to let others know what they believe. My Church and most all of our sister Churches have a statement of faith and a constitution which anyone can read. It identifies who we are and what we believe.

I only read and listen to Reformed theology, because I found Reformed theology to be the only biblically correct theology of all the available Christian theologies. It's the only one that proclaims true "Sola Scriptura", all the others are denominational Churches where Church fathers and Saints and other Hierarchy have authority.

The independent non denominational Reformed Church has the Holy Bible as the sole authority. So no man has any influence or authority in our Church. We are all equally under the authority of the Word of God, we're not free to change or add a single iota to the Word of God.

I have listened to all kinds of different Ministers over the years, I've heard all the different opinions and confessions of faith. So I didn't just stick with the Church I was born into, I left because it was a seeker friendly Church as most are. They water down the gospel to make it palatable for all kinds of sinful lifestyles to be comfortable in.

We regularly have visitors storm out of our services, they use some nasty expletives as they go because the the gospel we preach has the stench of death to hose who want to hold on their life of sin and demand that the Church affirm them in it.

But from Gods perspective, if that matters to you at all. One must be saved before they can believe. From our perspective, one who believes is proving he's saved.

So be careful not to place yourself on Gods throne and dictate the terms of salvation. Let God choose whom He has before He created the world. Why would God lie ad say He chose us before He created the world and then say, nah I'll scrub their names out and make it a lottery and see who's lucky or smart enough to win.

You can't have it both ways, you either accept what God said or you deny it. The choice is yours

Predestination is the sovereign, eternal, immutable, unalterable purpose of God almighty, by which he ordained and ordered, according to his own will and good pleasure, all things that come to pass in time.

Predestination is God’s purpose.

Rom 8:28

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Eph 1:11

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

2 Tim 1:9

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 13

Yes. Those who trust in Jesus Christ He justifies, gives a new clean spirit to, and into that new clean spirit the Holy Spirit, Father and Son dwell. He begins to sanctify us and mature our understanding, if we are willing to empty ourselves of our ego-stroking knowledge, falsely so called, to receive new meaty truth.

Yes you backwards, man by nature is unwilling to come to Christ jn 5:40

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

And men by nature cant come to christ Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

They dont believe because Christ didnt die for them as He did His Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Believing in Christ comes with the fact He died for you. So if one never believes, its because He never died for them taking away their sins. See His Death takes away sin and its awful consequences 1 Jn 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Unbelief is the consequences of sin

They dont believe because Christ didnt die for them as He did His Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Believing in Christ comes with the fact He died for you. So if one never believes, its because He never died for them taking away their sins. See His Death takes away sin and its awful consequences 1 Jn 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Unbelief is the consequences of sin

There was no "joint effort" in my proposed alternative, since faith is not a work, unless you reject the Bible and consider faith a work.

Do you consider what I posted to be Arminianism. It does not fit the definition you gave of Arminianism. And it does not fit Calvinism.

PaulThomson said:
What do you call the view where faith is not a work/ergon/effort and God offers salvation on the condition of faith, and man is capable of turning from distrust in God to trust in God, and man must be trusting God to be being saved from sin's power and consequences at any particular point in time?

To this you replied
So, according to you, it is a false view that is neither Calvinism nor Arminianism, Do you see now that there are other options? Is it possible for your understanding to grow?

yes thanks for being totally depraving I know the calvinist code you all live by now.

Which is to deprave people who are not Calvinist

Yes thanks for leaving the un- depriving part out he says ye will not come to me because they have yet to do this

The un- depraving part.

But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life

Men by nature are unwilling and at enmity against God, will not submit to God. So if a person becomes willing, then thats indicative God has changed them, saved them and given them a new heart. Duh