Predestination is misunderstood...

[reneweddaybyday]

Sealing is shutting out anyone or anything that is not authorised to enter or open what is sealed. The tomb was sealed to prevent anyone entering it apart from someone authorised to enter by the one who sealed it. The scroll with seven seals was not able to be

opened by anyone apart from the one authorised to open it, the Lamb after He had been slain and raised. Our new spirit, given in regeneration, is sealed by the Holy Spirit, so that nothing or no one can enter and defile that is not authorised to enter by the Father and the Son, who gave the seal to the new believer. What examples of ownership and approval are there in scripture where closure, shutting out the unauthorised, is not an obvious meaning of the sealing?

Here is Thayer's Greek Lexicon definition of sphragizō as used in Ephesians 1:13:

τινα τῷ πνεύματι and ἐν τῷ πνεύματι, respecting God, who by the gift of the Holy Spirit indicates who are his, passive, Ephesians 1:13​

Below is from ISBE:

God by His Spirit indicates who are His, as the owner sets his seal on his property; and just as documents are sealed up until the proper time for opening them, so Christians are sealed up by the Holy Spirit "unto the day of redemption" (Eph 1:13; 4:30; 2 Cor 1:22). Ownership, security and authentication are implied in the words, "The firm foundation of God standeth, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his" (2 Tim 2:19). The seal of God on the foreheads of His servants (Rev 7:2-4) marks them off as His own, and guarantees their eternal security, whereas those that "have not the seal of God on their foreheads" (Rev 9:4) have no such guaranty.​

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[PaulThomson]

if man is autonomous from God as those who proclaim that man has a free will and that God could not interfere with that free will then it is logical to deduce that God can not therefore know what will happen in the future because man by his so called free will can change it and therefore prophecy and the promises of God could not be taken to be perfect, which proves that man does not truly have free will because Scripture declares that no one can thwart God's sovereign decrees.

Dan 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, "What have You done?"

You completely ignored and ran from responding to most of my post. I wrote -


Actually, the Jews blocked their own ears and closed their own eyes in response to what God said to them via Isaiah. So God increased their self-imposed blindness by continuing to point out what they were already refusing to see. And God deepened their self-imposed deafness by continuing to tell them what they were already refusing to heed.

When I give someone hope, do I irresistibly grace them with hope? When I make someone angry, do I irresistibly impose anger on them. When I steel someone's resolve, do I force them to be resolute? Try thinking for yourself on this one and give me reasonable answers."

I guess I blinded and deafened you by asking those questions, causing you to shut more tightly your eyes and stick your fingers deeped into your ears.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Ok, so now you're the only on who has cracked the code and interpreted written scripture.

... I merely submitted verses of Scripture from the New Living Translation of the Bible. Here are the same verses from the ERV:

1 Corinthians 1:

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfected together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

11 For it hath been signified unto me concerning you, my brethren, by them which are of the household of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12 Now this I mean, that each one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.


1 Corinthians 3:

3 for ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you jealousy and strife, are ye not carnal, and walk after the manner of men?

4 For when one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not men?


You have a problem with that? ... take it up with the Author.

You have a serious problem, because there are 40,000 different interpretations. Yours is lost among the 40,000 but you have convinced yourself that you smarter then the other 40,000 and your private interpretation is the correct one.

whatever Charlie_2024 ... maybe you'll believe your good buddy Calvin (bold mine):

His object is, to maintain Christ’s exclusive authority in the Church, so that we may all exercise dependence upon him, that he alone may be recognized among us as Lord and Master, and that the name of no individual be set in opposition to his. Those, therefore, that draw away disciples after them (Acts 20:30,) with the view of splitting the Church into parties, he condemns as most destructive enemies of our faith.​

Commentaries on the Epistles of Paul the Apostle to the Corinthians by John Calvin​

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[reneweddaybyday]

Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:20-21

Have you ever read Jeremiah 36? great chapter illustrating how God provided Scripture to mankind ...
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[sawdust]

your answer only confirms that you therefore do not have assurance of going to Heaven.

No idea what alleged logic you are using there.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

consistent Arminians believe that it is because of their choice that God saved them and not God's choice and those who do so (which is the majority of those who call themselves Christian's today) sincerely believe that they are saved because of their faith

Please tell me the post number wherein it is stated that we are saved because of our choice.

I have not seen anyone make that statement. That is why I told you that you were engaging in strawman fallacy.

Anyone who says that they are saved because of their faith and not grace

You are the only one who is saying that. We all agree that salvation is wholly of/by/from God.

So unless you can point out the post submitted in this thread wherein it is stated what you claim is stated, quit insisting that someone is saying what they are not saying and quit ignoring the fact that you are the only one saying what you claim is said by others.


Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein [in the gospel of Christ] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
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[Charlie_2024]

Salvation involves a savior and the one who is saved.

My bible teaches that salvation is of the Lord. Can you please show me where the gospel message indicates that salvation is a joint effort between God and man. That would indicate that Jesus failed to finished the work on the cross, and that He must have uttered His last Words flippantly without knowing what he was saying.

This redemption doctrine robs the Lord of His glory and forces Him to share His glory with sinners.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Your claims are both logically unsound and logically invalid.

You are straw-manning the free will position, and arguing against a position free willers do not hold..

exactly!
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[PaulThomson]

Here is Thayer's Greek Lexicon definition of sphragizō as used in Ephesians 1:13:

τινα τῷ πνεύματι and ἐν τῷ πνεύματι, respecting God, who by the gift of the Holy Spirit indicates who are his, passive, Ephesians 1:13​

Below is from ISBE:

God by His Spirit indicates who are His, as the owner sets his seal on his property; and just as documents are sealed up until the proper time for opening them, so Christians are sealed up by the Holy Spirit "unto the day of redemption" (Eph 1:13; 4:30; 2 Cor 1:22). Ownership, security and authentication are implied in the words, "The firm foundation of God standeth, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his" (2 Tim 2:19). The seal of God on the foreheads of His servants (Rev 7:2-4) marks them off as His own, and guarantees their eternal security, whereas those that "have not the seal of God on their foreheads" (Rev 9:4) have no such guaranty.​

.

Do you really think God puts His seal on His people so that He can remember and He can easily identify who are His? Or so that others can recognise who are His? Or is it so that nothing unclean can break through and get into our new spirit, which God gave us and in which God has chosen to reside. Uncleanness is locked out.

Why does Rev. 22:11 say NOT to seal the sayings of the prophecy of this book, if sealing means indicating ownership of the prophecies. Surely, it means "don't make these prophecies inaccessible by closing them off from being read.
And Rev. 20:3 puts Satan in the bottomless pit and sets a seal upon Him. Is that to show he belongs to God, or to stop him being released by anyone but God.
Rev. 10:4 the seven thunders are sealed. Only those God authorises can have access to what the thunders said.
Rev. 7 seals the 144,000 before the earth is afflicted, to identify them for angels to guard them and to prevent the coming afflictions from harming the 144,000.
2 Cor. 11:10 Paul says no man can stop/seal me from this boasting. No one can lock Paul away such that he cannot boast.
Romans 15:28 Paul is going to seal to the jews in Jerusalem the financial support collected from the gentiles. He is going to entrust it out of his protective power into their protective power.

I think all the uses of sphragizO primarily indicate putting something under the protection of the one who owns the seal.

 

[sawdust]

I have already clearly explained that man is free to do according to his nature but because he is a slave of sin can not be counted to be truly free but you seem to think otherwise.

And I have clearly explained man is not naturally depraved in his soul but his flesh is what is against the Spirit and when grace is applied to the flesh, man is free to reveal the true desires of his soul in regards to the truth for the Lord ensures man is free to decide to agree with God or disagree according to his own desire and not as he is enforced to by God's desires. If it were not so, there would be no battle between the flesh and the mind, not could there be any salvation for the soul would constantly be raging against God. The truth would have to literally imprison us to keep in step with God's will, not set us free.

 

[Charlie_2024]

What do you call the view where faith is not a work/ergon/effort and God offers salvation on the condition of faith, and man is capable of turning from distrust in God to trust in God, and man must be trusting God to be being saved from sin's power and consequences at any particular point in time?

I call that a false unbiblical view, because it fails to take into account that faith and repentance are gifts from God. They are not something that man can manufacture or produce by any means. They are not natural abilities that we can attribute to men possessing, unless they are gifted to him by God.

So there is no place for men to boast about obedience and wisdom to choose to obey the gospel while other more intelligent people fail to use these qualities and natural abilities, after they hear the warning that they will be cast into hell if they don't obey.

The whole man + God joint effort salvation doctrine just doesn't stan up to what the bible clearly says.

 

[Genez]

I have already clearly explained that man is free to do according to his nature but because he is a slave of sin can not be counted to be truly free but you seem to think otherwise.

You are free to think that way....
Aren't you?

 

[Genez]

No idea what alleged logic you are using there.

He believes we all need to be vaccinated first...

You are on the 'no fly' list. --- no heaven for you!

 

[Genez]

My bible teaches that salvation is of the Lord. Can you please show me where the gospel message indicates that salvation is a joint effort between God and man. That would indicate that Jesus failed to finished the work on the cross, and that He must have uttered His last Words flippantly without knowing what he was saying.

This redemption doctrine robs the Lord of His glory and forces Him to share His glory with sinners.

Salvation involves our positive volition to God drawing us.
We do not save ourselves.
But we are involved in God's process to being saved....

Acts 16:30-31, tells us something important....

And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” ​

What do you make of that???

grace and peace ......

 

[Charlie_2024]

... I merely submitted verses of Scripture from the New Living Translation of the Bible. Here are the same verses from the ERV:

1 Corinthians 1:

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfected together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

11 For it hath been signified unto me concerning you, my brethren, by them which are of the household of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12 Now this I mean, that each one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.


1 Corinthians 3:

3 for ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you jealousy and strife, are ye not carnal, and walk after the manner of men?

4 For when one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not men?


You have a problem with that? ... take it up with the Author.





whatever Charlie_2024 ... maybe you'll believe your good buddy Calvin (bold mine):

His object is, to maintain Christ’s exclusive authority in the Church, so that we may all exercise dependence upon him, that he alone may be recognized among us as Lord and Master, and that the name of no individual be set in opposition to his. Those, therefore, that draw away disciples after them (Acts 20:30,) with the view of splitting the Church into parties, he condemns as most destructive enemies of our faith.​

Commentaries on the Epistles of Paul the Apostle to the Corinthians by John Calvin​

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All of that is fine, but you haven't identified anything that Calvin preached which is not biblically correct or anything that contradicts what the Bible says.

I'm not interested in who you personally like and who you dislike, that's a given. We all have people we love and people we don't like or dare I say it people we hate. Personalities don't count for anything, the only thing that matters is what they teach. If they teach a false doctrine, they will be exposed an put to shame.

John Calvin is one of the great men of God, he is still famous after 500 years. I don't know of too many other faithful men of God to have such a big influence on the world after so many centuries. False prophets are quickly forgotten and nobody knows they ever existed.

I would appreciate it if you could cite some false doctrine or erroneous unbiblical teaching, before you assassinate his character. If you can't find anything, then it tells me you don't like the awful biblical truth he taught

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Do you really think God puts His seal on His people so that He can remember and He can easily identify who are His?

No ... I believe He places His seal on the born again one so he or she can know he or she belongs to Him ... not question ... not doubt ... know

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Or so that others can recognise who are His?

Holy Spirit within the born again one produces fruit ... and, yes, others will know you by your fruit. Do you hold out the fruit of the spirit to those with whom you come into contact?

Or is it so that nothing unclean can break through and get into our new spirit, which God gave us and in which God has chosen to reside. Uncleanness is locked out.

in agreement ... and very cool

I think all the uses of sphragizO primarily indicate putting something under the protection of the one who owns the seal.

I believe the word sphragizō is used in various ways. you have provided scripture references which indicate this ... looking at Thayer's, the word sphragizō means:

to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal;​

for security​

to hide, keep in silence, keep secret​

to mark a person or thing; to stamp;​

to prove, confirm, or attest a thing; ... to confirm, authenticate, place beyond doubt​

And Thayer's also indicates specifically referencing Ephesians 1:13:

​

metaphorically: τινα τῷ πνεύματι and ἐν τῷ πνεύματι, respecting God, who by the gift of the Holy Spirit indicates who are his​

I am not just making up a new definition out of thin air. I have provided several sources which indicate the word sphragizō signifies ownership.

You are free to claim that information is inaccurate ... just as I am free to acknowledge the information is accurate.
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[reneweddaybyday]

All of that is fine

so do you now agree that there was division in the church at Corinth because people were following men instead of following the Lord Jesus Christ? ... and, yes, the pastors and teachers in our churches are to point the congregation to the Lord Jesus Christ so you don't need to go on another rant about your Minister.

I would appreciate it if you could cite some false doctrine or erroneous unbiblical teaching, before you assassinate his character.

please provide the post submitted by me wherein I assassinated his character. Thank you.
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[PaulThomson]

No ... I believe He places His seal on the born again one so he or she can know he or she belongs to Him ... not question ... not doubt ... know

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?





Holy Spirit within the born again one produces fruit ... and, yes, others will know you by your fruit. Do you hold out the fruit of the spirit to those with whom you come into contact?





in agreement ... and very cool





I believe the word sphragizō is used in various ways. you have provided scripture references which indicate this ... looking at Thayer's, the word sphragizō means:

to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal;​

for security​

to hide, keep in silence, keep secret​

to mark a person or thing; to stamp;​

to prove, confirm, or attest a thing; ... to confirm, authenticate, place beyond doubt​

And Thayer's also indicates specifically referencing Ephesians 1:13:

​

metaphorically: τινα τῷ πνεύματι and ἐν τῷ πνεύματι, respecting God, who by the gift of the Holy Spirit indicates who are his​

I am not just making up a new definition out of thin air. I have provided several sources which indicate the word sphragizō signifies ownership.

You are free to claim that information is inaccurate ... just as I am free to acknowledge the information is accurate.
.

I think the examples you gave are selective and are ambiguous, and the meaning of ownership is being read into those texts and the meaning of protection from access is being ognored, but apply just as readily yo your exemplar verses.

 

[PaulThomson]

I call that a false unbiblical view, because it fails to take into account that faith and repentance are gifts from God. They are not something that man can manufacture or produce by any means. They are not natural abilities that we can attribute to men possessing, unless they are gifted to him by God.

So there is no place for men to boast about obedience and wisdom to choose to obey the gospel while other more intelligent people fail to use these qualities and natural abilities, after they hear the warning that they will be cast into hell if they don't obey.

The whole man + God joint effort salvation doctrine just doesn't stan up to what the bible clearly says.

Do you call it calvinism. Or do you call it Arminianism? You said there are only two options.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I think the examples you gave are selective and are ambiguous, and the meaning of ownership is being read into those texts and the meaning of protection from access is being ognored, but apply just as readily yo your exemplar verses.

Do you know the spirit of God dwells within you?

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

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