Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR
- Thread starter MerSee
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Glad I have your attention-
Again-context-right?
Joh 6:60 R20When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?”
Joh 6:61 But Jesus, R22knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this?
Joh 6:62 Then what if you were to see R23the Son of Man R24ascending to R25where he was before?
Joh 6:63 R26It is the Spirit who gives life; R1the flesh is no help at all. R2The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Joh 6:64 But R3there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus R22knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and R4who it was who would betray him.)
Joh 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you R5that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
To whom was Jesus speaking to?
Again-context-right?
Joh 6:60 R20When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?”
Joh 6:61 But Jesus, R22knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this?
Joh 6:62 Then what if you were to see R23the Son of Man R24ascending to R25where he was before?
Joh 6:63 R26It is the Spirit who gives life; R1the flesh is no help at all. R2The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Joh 6:64 But R3there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus R22knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and R4who it was who would betray him.)
Joh 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you R5that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
To whom was Jesus speaking to?
The elect and the non-elect - the declaration of Christ was God's purpose for the Bible.
[2Co 2:15-16 KJV]
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one [we are] the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who [is] sufficient for these things?
[2Co 2:15-16 KJV]
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one [we are] the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who [is] sufficient for these things?
I disagree with you-you want to take me up?
But also for the sins of the whole world - The phrase “the sins of” is not in the original, but is not improperly supplied, for the connection demands it. This is one of the expressions occurring in the New Testament which demonstrate that the atonement was made for all people, and which cannot be reconciled with any other opinion.
If he had died only for a part of the race, this language could not have been used. The phrase, “the whole world,” is one which naturally embraces all people; is such as would be used if it be supposed that the apostle meant to teach that Christ died for all people; and is such as cannot be explained on any other supposition. If he died only for the elect, it is not true that he is the “propitiation for the sins of the whole world”--
1Jn 2:2 καὶ kai|G2532|Conj|And αὐτὸς autos|G846|PPro-NM3S|He ἱλασμός hilasmos|G2434|N-NMS|[the] propitiation ἐστιν estin|G1510|V-PIA-3S|is περὶ peri|G4012|Prep|for τῶν tōn|G3588|Art-GFP|the ἁμαρτιῶν hamartiōn|G266|N-GFP|sins ἡμῶν, hēmōn|G1473|PPro-G1P|of us; οὐ ou|G3756|Adv|not περὶ peri|G4012|Prep|for τῶν tōn|G3588|Art-GFP|the ἡμετέρων hēmeterōn|G2251|PPro-GF1P|of ours δὲ de|G1161|Conj|and μόνον monon|G3440|Adv|only, ἀλλὰ alla|G235|Conj|but καὶ kai|G2532|Conj|also περὶ peri|G4012|Prep|for ὅλου holou|G3650|Adj-GMS|all τοῦ tou|G3588|Art-GMS|the κόσμου. kosmou|G2889|N-GMS|world.
For the sins of the whole world (περὶ ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου)
The sins of (A. V., italicized) should be omitted; as in Revelation, for the whole world. Compare 1Jn_4:14; Joh_4:42; Joh_7:32. “The propitiation is as wide as the sin” (Bengel). If men do not experience its benefit, the fault is not in its efficacy. Düsterdieck (cited by Huther) says, “The propitiation has its real efficacy for the whole world; to believers it brings life, to unbelievers death.” Luther: “It is a patent fact that thou too art a part of the whole world; so that thine heart cannot deceive itself, and think, the Lord died for Peter and Paul, but not for me.” On κόσμου see on Joh_1:9.
the whole. The construction holou tou kosmou means the world as a whole, whole, entire, complete; "(1) used with a noun to indicate its totality" (Friberg). John also uses this construction in 1Jn_5:19 where the word order is ho kosmos holos, "the whole world lies in the sphere of the wicked one." John’s usage of whole, holos, cannot be evaded. Christ died for the world as a whole, the entire world! Accordingly, the Atonement is co-extensive with the Fall. Note that but also, alla kai, is an emphatic construction which adds emphasis or contrast, and so not only ours…but also the world, thus emphatically Atonement is for Adam’s fallen race! (Cf. Joh_3:16; Joh_12:32; 2Co_5:14; Eph_2:14; 1Ti_2:4) [LNT, fn q]. 1Jn_4:14; 1Jn_5:19, Mat_26:28, Luk_14:22, +*Joh_1:9; +*Joh_1:29; Joh_3:17; Joh_4:42; Joh_6:51; Joh_11:51-52; Joh_12:32, Rom_5:15, 2Co_5:14; 2Co_5:18-21, +*1Ti_2:6; **1Ti_4:10, +*Heb_2:9, 2Pe_2:1, Rev_12:9.
Gill
but also for the sins of the whole world; the Syriac version renders it, "not for us only, but also for the whole world"; that is, not for the Jews only, for John was a Jew, and so were those he wrote unto, but for the Gentiles also. Nothing is more common in Jewish writings than to call the Gentiles עלמא, "the world"; and כל העולם, "the whole world"; and אומות העולם, "the nations of the world" (l); See Gill on John 12:19; and the word "world" is so used in Scripture; see Joh_3:16; and stands opposed to a notion the Jews have of the Gentiles, that אין להן כפרה, "there is no propitiation for them" (m): and it is easy to observe, that when this phrase is not used of the Gentiles, it is to be understood in a limited and restrained sense; as when they say
,
"it happened to a certain high priest, that when he went out of the sanctuary, כולי עלמא, "the whole world" went after him;''
which could only design the people in the temple. And elsewhere (o) it is said,
"amle ylwk, "the "whole world" has left the Misna, and gone after the "Gemara";''
which at most can only intend the Jews; and indeed only a majority of their doctors, who were conversant with these writings: and in another place (p),
"amle ylwk, "the whole world" fell on their faces, but Raf did not fall on his face;''
where it means no more than the congregation. Once more, it is said (q), when
"R. Simeon ben Gamaliel entered (the synagogue), כולי עלמא, "the whole world" stood up before him;''
that is, the people in the synagogue: to which may be added (r),
"when a great man makes a mourning, כולי עלמא, "the whole world" come to honour him;''
i.e. a great number of persons attend the funeral pomp: and so these phrases, כולי עלמא לא פליגי, "the whole world" is not divided, or does not dissent (s); כולי עלמא סברי, "the whole world" are of opinion (t), are frequently met with in the Talmud, by which, an agreement among the Rabbins, in certain points, is designed; yea, sometimes the phrase, "all the men of the world" (u), only intend the inhabitants of a city where a synagogue was, and, at most, only the Jews: and so this phrase, "all the world", or "the whole world", in Scripture, unless when it signifies the whole universe, or the habitable earth, is always used in a limited sense, either for the Roman empire, or the churches of Christ in the world, or believers, or the present inhabitants of the world, or a part of them only, Luk_2:1; and so it is in this epistle, 1Jn_5:19; where the whole world lying in wickedness is manifestly distinguished from the saints, who are of God, and belong not to the world; and therefore cannot be understood of all the individuals in the world; and the like distinction is in this text itself, for "the sins of the whole world" are opposed to "our sins", the sins of the apostle and others to whom he joins himself; who therefore belonged not to, nor were a part of the whole world, for whose sins Christ is a propitiation as for theirs: so that this passage cannot furnish out any argument for universal redemption; for besides these things, it may be further observed, that for whose sins Christ is a propitiation, their sins are atoned for and pardoned, and their persons justified from all sin, and so shall certainly be glorified, which is not true of the whole world, and every man and woman in it; moreover, Christ is a propitiation through faith in his blood, the benefit of his propitiatory sacrifice is only received and enjoyed through faith; so that in the event it appears that Christ is a propitiation only for believers, a character which does not agree with all mankind; add to this, that for whom Christ is a propitiation he is also an advocate, 1Jn_2:1; but he is not an advocate for every individual person in the world; yea, there is a world he will not pray for Joh_17:9, and consequently is not a propitiation for them. Once more, the design of the apostle in these words is to comfort his "little children" with the advocacy and propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, who might fall into sin through weakness and inadvertency; but what comfort would it yield to a distressed mind, to be told that Christ was a propitiation not only for the sins of the apostles and other saints, but for the sins of every individual in the world, even of these that are in hell? Would it not be natural for persons in such circumstances to argue rather against, than for themselves, and conclude that seeing persons might be damned notwithstanding the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, that this might, and would be their case. In what sense Christ is a propitiation; see Gill on Rom_3:25. The Jews have no notion of the Messiah as a propitiation or atonement; sometimes they say (w) repentance atones for all sin; sometimes the death of the righteous (x); sometimes incense; sometimes the priests' garments (z); sometimes it is the day of atonement (a); and indeed they are in the utmost puzzle about atonement; and they even confess in their prayers (b), that they have now neither altar nor priest to atone for them; See Gill on 1Jn_4:10.
Again-even the Reformers see this as ALL-Pantas-
Also for the sins of the whole world. Christ's advocacy is limited to believers (1Jn_2:1; 1Jn_1:7): His propitiation extends as widely as sin: note, 2Pe_2:1, "the whole world" cannot be restricted to the believing portion (cf. 1Jn_4:14 and 1Jn_5:19). 'Thou, too, art part of the world: thine heart cannot think, The Lord died for Peter and Paul, but not for me' (Luther).
Do take time-since we all have plenty of time-to look up the Scripture references
But also for the sins of the whole world - The phrase “the sins of” is not in the original, but is not improperly supplied, for the connection demands it. This is one of the expressions occurring in the New Testament which demonstrate that the atonement was made for all people, and which cannot be reconciled with any other opinion.
If he had died only for a part of the race, this language could not have been used. The phrase, “the whole world,” is one which naturally embraces all people; is such as would be used if it be supposed that the apostle meant to teach that Christ died for all people; and is such as cannot be explained on any other supposition. If he died only for the elect, it is not true that he is the “propitiation for the sins of the whole world”--
1Jn 2:2 καὶ kai|G2532|Conj|And αὐτὸς autos|G846|PPro-NM3S|He ἱλασμός hilasmos|G2434|N-NMS|[the] propitiation ἐστιν estin|G1510|V-PIA-3S|is περὶ peri|G4012|Prep|for τῶν tōn|G3588|Art-GFP|the ἁμαρτιῶν hamartiōn|G266|N-GFP|sins ἡμῶν, hēmōn|G1473|PPro-G1P|of us; οὐ ou|G3756|Adv|not περὶ peri|G4012|Prep|for τῶν tōn|G3588|Art-GFP|the ἡμετέρων hēmeterōn|G2251|PPro-GF1P|of ours δὲ de|G1161|Conj|and μόνον monon|G3440|Adv|only, ἀλλὰ alla|G235|Conj|but καὶ kai|G2532|Conj|also περὶ peri|G4012|Prep|for ὅλου holou|G3650|Adj-GMS|all τοῦ tou|G3588|Art-GMS|the κόσμου. kosmou|G2889|N-GMS|world.
For the sins of the whole world (περὶ ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου)
The sins of (A. V., italicized) should be omitted; as in Revelation, for the whole world. Compare 1Jn_4:14; Joh_4:42; Joh_7:32. “The propitiation is as wide as the sin” (Bengel). If men do not experience its benefit, the fault is not in its efficacy. Düsterdieck (cited by Huther) says, “The propitiation has its real efficacy for the whole world; to believers it brings life, to unbelievers death.” Luther: “It is a patent fact that thou too art a part of the whole world; so that thine heart cannot deceive itself, and think, the Lord died for Peter and Paul, but not for me.” On κόσμου see on Joh_1:9.
the whole. The construction holou tou kosmou means the world as a whole, whole, entire, complete; "(1) used with a noun to indicate its totality" (Friberg). John also uses this construction in 1Jn_5:19 where the word order is ho kosmos holos, "the whole world lies in the sphere of the wicked one." John’s usage of whole, holos, cannot be evaded. Christ died for the world as a whole, the entire world! Accordingly, the Atonement is co-extensive with the Fall. Note that but also, alla kai, is an emphatic construction which adds emphasis or contrast, and so not only ours…but also the world, thus emphatically Atonement is for Adam’s fallen race! (Cf. Joh_3:16; Joh_12:32; 2Co_5:14; Eph_2:14; 1Ti_2:4) [LNT, fn q]. 1Jn_4:14; 1Jn_5:19, Mat_26:28, Luk_14:22, +*Joh_1:9; +*Joh_1:29; Joh_3:17; Joh_4:42; Joh_6:51; Joh_11:51-52; Joh_12:32, Rom_5:15, 2Co_5:14; 2Co_5:18-21, +*1Ti_2:6; **1Ti_4:10, +*Heb_2:9, 2Pe_2:1, Rev_12:9.
Gill
but also for the sins of the whole world; the Syriac version renders it, "not for us only, but also for the whole world"; that is, not for the Jews only, for John was a Jew, and so were those he wrote unto, but for the Gentiles also. Nothing is more common in Jewish writings than to call the Gentiles עלמא, "the world"; and כל העולם, "the whole world"; and אומות העולם, "the nations of the world" (l); See Gill on John 12:19; and the word "world" is so used in Scripture; see Joh_3:16; and stands opposed to a notion the Jews have of the Gentiles, that אין להן כפרה, "there is no propitiation for them" (m): and it is easy to observe, that when this phrase is not used of the Gentiles, it is to be understood in a limited and restrained sense; as when they say
,"it happened to a certain high priest, that when he went out of the sanctuary, כולי עלמא, "the whole world" went after him;''
which could only design the people in the temple. And elsewhere (o) it is said,
"amle ylwk, "the "whole world" has left the Misna, and gone after the "Gemara";''
which at most can only intend the Jews; and indeed only a majority of their doctors, who were conversant with these writings: and in another place (p),
"amle ylwk, "the whole world" fell on their faces, but Raf did not fall on his face;''
where it means no more than the congregation. Once more, it is said (q), when
"R. Simeon ben Gamaliel entered (the synagogue), כולי עלמא, "the whole world" stood up before him;''
that is, the people in the synagogue: to which may be added (r),
"when a great man makes a mourning, כולי עלמא, "the whole world" come to honour him;''
i.e. a great number of persons attend the funeral pomp: and so these phrases, כולי עלמא לא פליגי, "the whole world" is not divided, or does not dissent (s); כולי עלמא סברי, "the whole world" are of opinion (t), are frequently met with in the Talmud, by which, an agreement among the Rabbins, in certain points, is designed; yea, sometimes the phrase, "all the men of the world" (u), only intend the inhabitants of a city where a synagogue was, and, at most, only the Jews: and so this phrase, "all the world", or "the whole world", in Scripture, unless when it signifies the whole universe, or the habitable earth, is always used in a limited sense, either for the Roman empire, or the churches of Christ in the world, or believers, or the present inhabitants of the world, or a part of them only, Luk_2:1; and so it is in this epistle, 1Jn_5:19; where the whole world lying in wickedness is manifestly distinguished from the saints, who are of God, and belong not to the world; and therefore cannot be understood of all the individuals in the world; and the like distinction is in this text itself, for "the sins of the whole world" are opposed to "our sins", the sins of the apostle and others to whom he joins himself; who therefore belonged not to, nor were a part of the whole world, for whose sins Christ is a propitiation as for theirs: so that this passage cannot furnish out any argument for universal redemption; for besides these things, it may be further observed, that for whose sins Christ is a propitiation, their sins are atoned for and pardoned, and their persons justified from all sin, and so shall certainly be glorified, which is not true of the whole world, and every man and woman in it; moreover, Christ is a propitiation through faith in his blood, the benefit of his propitiatory sacrifice is only received and enjoyed through faith; so that in the event it appears that Christ is a propitiation only for believers, a character which does not agree with all mankind; add to this, that for whom Christ is a propitiation he is also an advocate, 1Jn_2:1; but he is not an advocate for every individual person in the world; yea, there is a world he will not pray for Joh_17:9, and consequently is not a propitiation for them. Once more, the design of the apostle in these words is to comfort his "little children" with the advocacy and propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, who might fall into sin through weakness and inadvertency; but what comfort would it yield to a distressed mind, to be told that Christ was a propitiation not only for the sins of the apostles and other saints, but for the sins of every individual in the world, even of these that are in hell? Would it not be natural for persons in such circumstances to argue rather against, than for themselves, and conclude that seeing persons might be damned notwithstanding the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, that this might, and would be their case. In what sense Christ is a propitiation; see Gill on Rom_3:25. The Jews have no notion of the Messiah as a propitiation or atonement; sometimes they say (w) repentance atones for all sin; sometimes the death of the righteous (x); sometimes incense
; sometimes the priests' garments (z); sometimes it is the day of atonement (a); and indeed they are in the utmost puzzle about atonement; and they even confess in their prayers (b), that they have now neither altar nor priest to atone for them; See Gill on 1Jn_4:10.Again-even the Reformers see this as ALL-Pantas-
Also for the sins of the whole world. Christ's advocacy is limited to believers (1Jn_2:1; 1Jn_1:7): His propitiation extends as widely as sin: note, 2Pe_2:1, "the whole world" cannot be restricted to the believing portion (cf. 1Jn_4:14 and 1Jn_5:19). 'Thou, too, art part of the world: thine heart cannot think, The Lord died for Peter and Paul, but not for me' (Luther).
Do take time-since we all have plenty of time-to look up the Scripture references
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Yeah, well the "whoever" is not actually in the verse; the definition of the word is "this, that, these" (see below) - meaning these the Father gives to Jesus shall come to Him, but not meaning the possibility of anyone coming to him. Even were it "whosoever" (which it isn't), that still wouldn't contradict the intent of that verse nor the other verses in proximity to it, because the "whosoever" would mean those whom the Father gives to Christ. Plus, if it actually does mean "whosoever", then the first part of the verse would be unneeded because everyone would be covered under the "whosoever", thereby making the verse a logical contradiction of itself.
g3956
πᾶν πᾶςpas
A-NSN
that
g3739
ὃ ὅςos
R-ASN
the
g3588
ὁ ὁho
T-NSM
Father
g3962
πατὴρ πατήρpatēr
N-NSM
gives
g1325
δίδωσίν δίδωμιdidōmi
V-PAI-3S
Me
g1473
μοι ἐγώegō
P-DS
will come
PHRASE
g2240
ἥξει ἥκωēkō
V-FAI-3S
to
g4314
πρὸς πρόςpros
PREP
Me
g1473
ἐμὲ ἐγώegō
P-AS
and
g2532
καὶ καίkai
CONJ
the one who
PHRASE
g3588
τὸν ὁho
ho
this, that, these, etc.
T-ASM
comes
g2064
ἐρχόμενον ἔρχομαιerchomai
V-PMP-ASM
to
g4314
πρὸς πρόςpros
PREP
Me
g1473
ἐμὲ ἐγώegō
P-AS
I will certainly
PHRASE
g1544 ↓
ἐκβάλω ἐκβάλλωekballō
V-AAS-1S
↓
g3756
οὐ οὐou
ADV
not
g3361
μὴ μήmē
ADV
cast
g1544 ↑
ἐκβάλω ἐκβάλλωekballō
V-AAS-1S
out
g3956
πᾶν πᾶςpas
A-NSN
that
g3739
ὃ ὅςos
R-ASN
the
g3588
ὁ ὁho
T-NSM
Father
g3962
πατὴρ πατήρpatēr
N-NSM
gives
g1325
δίδωσίν δίδωμιdidōmi
V-PAI-3S
Me
g1473
μοι ἐγώegō
P-DS
will come
PHRASE
g2240
ἥξει ἥκωēkō
V-FAI-3S
to
g4314
πρὸς πρόςpros
PREP
Me
g1473
ἐμὲ ἐγώegō
P-AS
and
g2532
καὶ καίkai
CONJ
the one who
PHRASE
g3588
τὸν ὁho
ho
this, that, these, etc.
T-ASM
comes
g2064
ἐρχόμενον ἔρχομαιerchomai
V-PMP-ASM
to
g4314
πρὸς πρόςpros
PREP
Me
g1473
ἐμὲ ἐγώegō
P-AS
I will certainly
PHRASE
g1544 ↓
ἐκβάλω ἐκβάλλωekballō
V-AAS-1S
↓
g3756
οὐ οὐou
ADV
not
g3361
μὴ μήmē
ADV
cast
g1544 ↑
ἐκβάλω ἐκβάλλωekballō
V-AAS-1S
out
Can you provide Scripture references that Messiah only died for believers?
Since your assertion flies against-
1Jn 2:2 R26He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but R1also for the sins of the whole world.
ἡμετέρων hēmeterōn|G2251|PPro-GF1P|of ours δὲ de|G1161|Conj|and μόνον monon|G3440|Adv|only, ἀλλὰ alla|G235|Conj|but καὶ kai|G2532|Conj|also περὶ peri|G4012|Prep|for ὅλου holou|G3650|Adj-GMS|all τοῦ tou|G3588|Art-GMS|the κόσμου. kosmou|G2889|N-GMS|world.
hólos; fem. hólē, neut. hólon, adj. Whole, used as a demonstrative pron. To say tó hólon, the whole, the noun must have the art. and hólos must be placed in the position of predicate. Hólos is declined as a masc. noun such as ánthrōpos (G444), man; e.g., hólon tón kósmon (kósmon [G2889], world), the whole world (Mar_14:9). It can also be expressed with hólon at the end, as tón kósmon hólon, the world, all of it (Mar_8:36). Of space, extent, amount (Mat_4:23; Mat_5:29; Mat_16:26; Mat_21:4; Mat_22:40; Mar_1:33; Luk_1:65; Joh_4:53; 1Co_5:6; Rev_6:12 UBS). Neut. hólon, the whole, referring to mass (Mat_13:33; Luk_13:21; Joh_19:23; Sept.: Gen_25:25; Exo_28:27; Zec_4:2), time (Mat_20:6; Luk_5:5; Act_11:26; Act_28:30; Sept.: Exo_10:13; Lev_25:30), an affection, emotion, condition (Mat_22:37, quoted from Deu_6:5; Luk_10:27; Joh_9:34; Joh_13:10).
Deriv.: kathólou (G2527), wholly, entirely; holóklēros (G3648), entire; holotelḗs (G3651), wholly, through and through; hólōs (G3654), at all.
Syn.: pás (G3956), all; hápas (G537), the whole; plḗrōma (G4138), fullness.
Ant.: hékastos (G1538), each; méros (G3313) part, piece; merís (G3310), share, part; diaíresis (G1243), division; klásma (G2801), piece, fragment.
But also for the sins of the whole world - The phrase “the sins of” is not in the original, but is not improperly supplied, for the connection demands it. This is one of the expressions occurring in the New Testament which demonstrate that the atonement was made for all people, and which cannot be reconciled with any other opinion. If he had died only for a part of the race, this language could not have been used. The phrase, “the whole world,” is one which naturally embraces all people; is such as would be used if it be supposed that the apostle meant to teach that Christ died for all people; and is such as cannot be explained on any other supposition. If he died only for the elect, it is not true that he is the “propitiation for the sins of the whole world” in any proper sense, nor would it be possible then to assign a sense in which it could be true.
For the sins of the whole world (περὶ ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου)
The sins of (A. V., italicized) should be omitted; as in Revelation, for the whole world. Compare 1Jn_4:14; Joh_4:42; Joh_7:32. “The propitiation is as wide as the sin” (Bengel). If men do not experience its benefit, the fault is not in its efficacy. Düsterdieck (cited by Huther) says, “The propitiation has its real efficacy for the whole world; to believers it brings life, to unbelievers death.” Luther: “It is a patent fact that thou too art a part of the whole world; so that thine heart cannot deceive itself, and think, the Lord died for Peter and Paul, but not for me.” On κόσμου see on Joh_1:9.
A brief summation of--(ἱλασμός)
The propitiation (ἱλασμός)
Only here and 1Jn_4:10. From ἱλάσκομαι to appease, to conciliate to one's self, which occurs Luk_18:13; Heb_2:17. The noun means originally an appeasing or propitiating, and passes, through Alexandrine usage, into the sense of the means of appeasing, as here. The construction is to be particularly noted; for, in the matter of (περί) our sins; the genitive case of that for which propitiation is made. In Heb_2:17, the accusative case, also of the sins to be propitiated. In classical usage, on the other hand, the habitual construction is the accusative (direct objective case), of the person propitiated. So in Homer, of the gods. Θεὸν ἱλάσκεσθαι is to make a God propitious to one. See “Iliad,” i., 386, 472. Of men whom one wishes to conciliate by divine honors after death. So Herodotus, of Philip of Crotona. “His beauty gained him honors at the hands of the Egestaeans which they never accorded to any one else; for they raised a hero-temple over his grave, and they still propitiate him (αὐτὸν ἱλάσκονται) with sacrifices” (v., 47). Again, “The Parians, having propitiated Themistocles (Θεμιστοκλέα ἱλασάμενοι) with gifts, escaped the visits of the army” (viii., 112). The change from this construction shows, to quote Canon Westcott, “that the scriptural conception of the verb is not that of appeasing one who is angry, with a personal feeling, against the offender; but of altering the character of that which, from without, occasions a necessary alienation, and interposes an inevitable obstacle to fellowship. Such phrases as 'propitiating God,' and God 'being reconciled' are foreign to the language of the New Testament. Man is reconciled (2Co_5:18 sqq.; Rom_5:10 sq.). There is a propitiation in the matter of the sin or of the sinner.”
Joh 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Joh 4:40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they asked him to stay with them, and he stayed there two days.
Joh 4:41 And many more believed because of his word.
Joh 4:42 They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.”
Joh 11:49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all.
Joh 11:50 Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish.”
Joh 11:51 He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation,
Joh 11:52 and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.
Joh 12:30 Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not mine.
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
J.
Since your assertion flies against-
1Jn 2:2 R26He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but R1also for the sins of the whole world.
ἡμετέρων hēmeterōn|G2251|PPro-GF1P|of ours δὲ de|G1161|Conj|and μόνον monon|G3440|Adv|only, ἀλλὰ alla|G235|Conj|but καὶ kai|G2532|Conj|also περὶ peri|G4012|Prep|for ὅλου holou|G3650|Adj-GMS|all τοῦ tou|G3588|Art-GMS|the κόσμου. kosmou|G2889|N-GMS|world.
hólos; fem. hólē, neut. hólon, adj. Whole, used as a demonstrative pron. To say tó hólon, the whole, the noun must have the art. and hólos must be placed in the position of predicate. Hólos is declined as a masc. noun such as ánthrōpos (G444), man; e.g., hólon tón kósmon (kósmon [G2889], world), the whole world (Mar_14:9). It can also be expressed with hólon at the end, as tón kósmon hólon, the world, all of it (Mar_8:36). Of space, extent, amount (Mat_4:23; Mat_5:29; Mat_16:26; Mat_21:4; Mat_22:40; Mar_1:33; Luk_1:65; Joh_4:53; 1Co_5:6; Rev_6:12 UBS). Neut. hólon, the whole, referring to mass (Mat_13:33; Luk_13:21; Joh_19:23; Sept.: Gen_25:25; Exo_28:27; Zec_4:2), time (Mat_20:6; Luk_5:5; Act_11:26; Act_28:30; Sept.: Exo_10:13; Lev_25:30), an affection, emotion, condition (Mat_22:37, quoted from Deu_6:5; Luk_10:27; Joh_9:34; Joh_13:10).
Deriv.: kathólou (G2527), wholly, entirely; holóklēros (G3648), entire; holotelḗs (G3651), wholly, through and through; hólōs (G3654), at all.
Syn.: pás (G3956), all; hápas (G537), the whole; plḗrōma (G4138), fullness.
Ant.: hékastos (G1538), each; méros (G3313) part, piece; merís (G3310), share, part; diaíresis (G1243), division; klásma (G2801), piece, fragment.
But also for the sins of the whole world - The phrase “the sins of” is not in the original, but is not improperly supplied, for the connection demands it. This is one of the expressions occurring in the New Testament which demonstrate that the atonement was made for all people, and which cannot be reconciled with any other opinion. If he had died only for a part of the race, this language could not have been used. The phrase, “the whole world,” is one which naturally embraces all people; is such as would be used if it be supposed that the apostle meant to teach that Christ died for all people; and is such as cannot be explained on any other supposition. If he died only for the elect, it is not true that he is the “propitiation for the sins of the whole world” in any proper sense, nor would it be possible then to assign a sense in which it could be true.
For the sins of the whole world (περὶ ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου)
The sins of (A. V., italicized) should be omitted; as in Revelation, for the whole world. Compare 1Jn_4:14; Joh_4:42; Joh_7:32. “The propitiation is as wide as the sin” (Bengel). If men do not experience its benefit, the fault is not in its efficacy. Düsterdieck (cited by Huther) says, “The propitiation has its real efficacy for the whole world; to believers it brings life, to unbelievers death.” Luther: “It is a patent fact that thou too art a part of the whole world; so that thine heart cannot deceive itself, and think, the Lord died for Peter and Paul, but not for me.” On κόσμου see on Joh_1:9.
A brief summation of--(ἱλασμός)
The propitiation (ἱλασμός)
Only here and 1Jn_4:10. From ἱλάσκομαι to appease, to conciliate to one's self, which occurs Luk_18:13; Heb_2:17. The noun means originally an appeasing or propitiating, and passes, through Alexandrine usage, into the sense of the means of appeasing, as here. The construction is to be particularly noted; for, in the matter of (περί) our sins; the genitive case of that for which propitiation is made. In Heb_2:17, the accusative case, also of the sins to be propitiated. In classical usage, on the other hand, the habitual construction is the accusative (direct objective case), of the person propitiated. So in Homer, of the gods. Θεὸν ἱλάσκεσθαι is to make a God propitious to one. See “Iliad,” i., 386, 472. Of men whom one wishes to conciliate by divine honors after death. So Herodotus, of Philip of Crotona. “His beauty gained him honors at the hands of the Egestaeans which they never accorded to any one else; for they raised a hero-temple over his grave, and they still propitiate him (αὐτὸν ἱλάσκονται) with sacrifices” (v., 47). Again, “The Parians, having propitiated Themistocles (Θεμιστοκλέα ἱλασάμενοι) with gifts, escaped the visits of the army” (viii., 112). The change from this construction shows, to quote Canon Westcott, “that the scriptural conception of the verb is not that of appeasing one who is angry, with a personal feeling, against the offender; but of altering the character of that which, from without, occasions a necessary alienation, and interposes an inevitable obstacle to fellowship. Such phrases as 'propitiating God,' and God 'being reconciled' are foreign to the language of the New Testament. Man is reconciled (2Co_5:18 sqq.; Rom_5:10 sq.). There is a propitiation in the matter of the sin or of the sinner.”
Joh 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Joh 4:40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they asked him to stay with them, and he stayed there two days.
Joh 4:41 And many more believed because of his word.
Joh 4:42 They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.”
Joh 11:49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all.
Joh 11:50 Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish.”
Joh 11:51 He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation,
Joh 11:52 and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.
Joh 12:30 Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not mine.
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
J.
Can you provide Scripture references that Messiah only died for believers?
Since your assertion flies against-
1Jn 2:2 R26He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but R1also for the sins of the whole world.
ἡμετέρων hēmeterōn|G2251|PPro-GF1P|of ours δὲ de|G1161|Conj|and μόνον monon|G3440|Adv|only, ἀλλὰ alla|G235|Conj|but καὶ kai|G2532|Conj|also περὶ peri|G4012|Prep|for ὅλου holou|G3650|Adj-GMS|all τοῦ tou|G3588|Art-GMS|the κόσμου. kosmou|G2889|N-GMS|world.
hólos; fem. hólē, neut. hólon, adj. Whole, used as a demonstrative pron. To say tó hólon, the whole, the noun must have the art. and hólos must be placed in the position of predicate. Hólos is declined as a masc. noun such as ánthrōpos (G444), man; e.g., hólon tón kósmon (kósmon [G2889], world), the whole world (Mar_14:9). It can also be expressed with hólon at the end, as tón kósmon hólon, the world, all of it (Mar_8:36). Of space, extent, amount (Mat_4:23; Mat_5:29; Mat_16:26; Mat_21:4; Mat_22:40; Mar_1:33; Luk_1:65; Joh_4:53; 1Co_5:6; Rev_6:12 UBS). Neut. hólon, the whole, referring to mass (Mat_13:33; Luk_13:21; Joh_19:23; Sept.: Gen_25:25; Exo_28:27; Zec_4:2), time (Mat_20:6; Luk_5:5; Act_11:26; Act_28:30; Sept.: Exo_10:13; Lev_25:30), an affection, emotion, condition (Mat_22:37, quoted from Deu_6:5; Luk_10:27; Joh_9:34; Joh_13:10).
Deriv.: kathólou (G2527), wholly, entirely; holóklēros (G3648), entire; holotelḗs (G3651), wholly, through and through; hólōs (G3654), at all.
Syn.: pás (G3956), all; hápas (G537), the whole; plḗrōma (G4138), fullness.
Ant.: hékastos (G1538), each; méros (G3313) part, piece; merís (G3310), share, part; diaíresis (G1243), division; klásma (G2801), piece, fragment.
But also for the sins of the whole world - The phrase “the sins of” is not in the original, but is not improperly supplied, for the connection demands it. This is one of the expressions occurring in the New Testament which demonstrate that the atonement was made for all people, and which cannot be reconciled with any other opinion. If he had died only for a part of the race, this language could not have been used. The phrase, “the whole world,” is one which naturally embraces all people; is such as would be used if it be supposed that the apostle meant to teach that Christ died for all people; and is such as cannot be explained on any other supposition. If he died only for the elect, it is not true that he is the “propitiation for the sins of the whole world” in any proper sense, nor would it be possible then to assign a sense in which it could be true.
For the sins of the whole world (περὶ ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου)
The sins of (A. V., italicized) should be omitted; as in Revelation, for the whole world. Compare 1Jn_4:14; Joh_4:42; Joh_7:32. “The propitiation is as wide as the sin” (Bengel). If men do not experience its benefit, the fault is not in its efficacy. Düsterdieck (cited by Huther) says, “The propitiation has its real efficacy for the whole world; to believers it brings life, to unbelievers death.” Luther: “It is a patent fact that thou too art a part of the whole world; so that thine heart cannot deceive itself, and think, the Lord died for Peter and Paul, but not for me.” On κόσμου see on Joh_1:9.
A brief summation of--(ἱλασμός)
The propitiation (ἱλασμός)
Only here and 1Jn_4:10. From ἱλάσκομαι to appease, to conciliate to one's self, which occurs Luk_18:13; Heb_2:17. The noun means originally an appeasing or propitiating, and passes, through Alexandrine usage, into the sense of the means of appeasing, as here. The construction is to be particularly noted; for, in the matter of (περί) our sins; the genitive case of that for which propitiation is made. In Heb_2:17, the accusative case, also of the sins to be propitiated. In classical usage, on the other hand, the habitual construction is the accusative (direct objective case), of the person propitiated. So in Homer, of the gods. Θεὸν ἱλάσκεσθαι is to make a God propitious to one. See “Iliad,” i., 386, 472. Of men whom one wishes to conciliate by divine honors after death. So Herodotus, of Philip of Crotona. “His beauty gained him honors at the hands of the Egestaeans which they never accorded to any one else; for they raised a hero-temple over his grave, and they still propitiate him (αὐτὸν ἱλάσκονται) with sacrifices” (v., 47). Again, “The Parians, having propitiated Themistocles (Θεμιστοκλέα ἱλασάμενοι) with gifts, escaped the visits of the army” (viii., 112). The change from this construction shows, to quote Canon Westcott, “that the scriptural conception of the verb is not that of appeasing one who is angry, with a personal feeling, against the offender; but of altering the character of that which, from without, occasions a necessary alienation, and interposes an inevitable obstacle to fellowship. Such phrases as 'propitiating God,' and God 'being reconciled' are foreign to the language of the New Testament. Man is reconciled (2Co_5:18 sqq.; Rom_5:10 sq.). There is a propitiation in the matter of the sin or of the sinner.”
Joh 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Joh 4:40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they asked him to stay with them, and he stayed there two days.
Joh 4:41 And many more believed because of his word.
Joh 4:42 They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.”
Joh 11:49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all.
Joh 11:50 Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish.”
Joh 11:51 He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation,
Joh 11:52 and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.
Joh 12:30 Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not mine.
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
J.
Since your assertion flies against-
1Jn 2:2 R26He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but R1also for the sins of the whole world.
ἡμετέρων hēmeterōn|G2251|PPro-GF1P|of ours δὲ de|G1161|Conj|and μόνον monon|G3440|Adv|only, ἀλλὰ alla|G235|Conj|but καὶ kai|G2532|Conj|also περὶ peri|G4012|Prep|for ὅλου holou|G3650|Adj-GMS|all τοῦ tou|G3588|Art-GMS|the κόσμου. kosmou|G2889|N-GMS|world.
hólos; fem. hólē, neut. hólon, adj. Whole, used as a demonstrative pron. To say tó hólon, the whole, the noun must have the art. and hólos must be placed in the position of predicate. Hólos is declined as a masc. noun such as ánthrōpos (G444), man; e.g., hólon tón kósmon (kósmon [G2889], world), the whole world (Mar_14:9). It can also be expressed with hólon at the end, as tón kósmon hólon, the world, all of it (Mar_8:36). Of space, extent, amount (Mat_4:23; Mat_5:29; Mat_16:26; Mat_21:4; Mat_22:40; Mar_1:33; Luk_1:65; Joh_4:53; 1Co_5:6; Rev_6:12 UBS). Neut. hólon, the whole, referring to mass (Mat_13:33; Luk_13:21; Joh_19:23; Sept.: Gen_25:25; Exo_28:27; Zec_4:2), time (Mat_20:6; Luk_5:5; Act_11:26; Act_28:30; Sept.: Exo_10:13; Lev_25:30), an affection, emotion, condition (Mat_22:37, quoted from Deu_6:5; Luk_10:27; Joh_9:34; Joh_13:10).
Deriv.: kathólou (G2527), wholly, entirely; holóklēros (G3648), entire; holotelḗs (G3651), wholly, through and through; hólōs (G3654), at all.
Syn.: pás (G3956), all; hápas (G537), the whole; plḗrōma (G4138), fullness.
Ant.: hékastos (G1538), each; méros (G3313) part, piece; merís (G3310), share, part; diaíresis (G1243), division; klásma (G2801), piece, fragment.
But also for the sins of the whole world - The phrase “the sins of” is not in the original, but is not improperly supplied, for the connection demands it. This is one of the expressions occurring in the New Testament which demonstrate that the atonement was made for all people, and which cannot be reconciled with any other opinion. If he had died only for a part of the race, this language could not have been used. The phrase, “the whole world,” is one which naturally embraces all people; is such as would be used if it be supposed that the apostle meant to teach that Christ died for all people; and is such as cannot be explained on any other supposition. If he died only for the elect, it is not true that he is the “propitiation for the sins of the whole world” in any proper sense, nor would it be possible then to assign a sense in which it could be true.
For the sins of the whole world (περὶ ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου)
The sins of (A. V., italicized) should be omitted; as in Revelation, for the whole world. Compare 1Jn_4:14; Joh_4:42; Joh_7:32. “The propitiation is as wide as the sin” (Bengel). If men do not experience its benefit, the fault is not in its efficacy. Düsterdieck (cited by Huther) says, “The propitiation has its real efficacy for the whole world; to believers it brings life, to unbelievers death.” Luther: “It is a patent fact that thou too art a part of the whole world; so that thine heart cannot deceive itself, and think, the Lord died for Peter and Paul, but not for me.” On κόσμου see on Joh_1:9.
A brief summation of--(ἱλασμός)
The propitiation (ἱλασμός)
Only here and 1Jn_4:10. From ἱλάσκομαι to appease, to conciliate to one's self, which occurs Luk_18:13; Heb_2:17. The noun means originally an appeasing or propitiating, and passes, through Alexandrine usage, into the sense of the means of appeasing, as here. The construction is to be particularly noted; for, in the matter of (περί) our sins; the genitive case of that for which propitiation is made. In Heb_2:17, the accusative case, also of the sins to be propitiated. In classical usage, on the other hand, the habitual construction is the accusative (direct objective case), of the person propitiated. So in Homer, of the gods. Θεὸν ἱλάσκεσθαι is to make a God propitious to one. See “Iliad,” i., 386, 472. Of men whom one wishes to conciliate by divine honors after death. So Herodotus, of Philip of Crotona. “His beauty gained him honors at the hands of the Egestaeans which they never accorded to any one else; for they raised a hero-temple over his grave, and they still propitiate him (αὐτὸν ἱλάσκονται) with sacrifices” (v., 47). Again, “The Parians, having propitiated Themistocles (Θεμιστοκλέα ἱλασάμενοι) with gifts, escaped the visits of the army” (viii., 112). The change from this construction shows, to quote Canon Westcott, “that the scriptural conception of the verb is not that of appeasing one who is angry, with a personal feeling, against the offender; but of altering the character of that which, from without, occasions a necessary alienation, and interposes an inevitable obstacle to fellowship. Such phrases as 'propitiating God,' and God 'being reconciled' are foreign to the language of the New Testament. Man is reconciled (2Co_5:18 sqq.; Rom_5:10 sq.). There is a propitiation in the matter of the sin or of the sinner.”
Joh 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Joh 4:40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they asked him to stay with them, and he stayed there two days.
Joh 4:41 And many more believed because of his word.
Joh 4:42 They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.”
Joh 11:49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all.
Joh 11:50 Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish.”
Joh 11:51 He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation,
Joh 11:52 and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.
Joh 12:30 Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not mine.
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
J.
John 16:25 NIV
[25] “Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.
John 17:1-19 NIV
[1] After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. [2] For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. [3] Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. [4] I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. [5] And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. [6] “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. [7] Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. [8] For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. [9] I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. [10] All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. [11] I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. [12] While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. [13] “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. [14] I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. [15] My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. [16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. [17] Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. [18] As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. [19] For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
[25] “Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.
John 17:1-19 NIV
[1] After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. [2] For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. [3] Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. [4] I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. [5] And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. [6] “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. [7] Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. [8] For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. [9] I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. [10] All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. [11] I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. [12] While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. [13] “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. [14] I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. [15] My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. [16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. [17] Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. [18] As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. [19] For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
Joh 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Joh 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
Joh 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
Joh 6:66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.
Joh 6:67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?”
Joh 6:68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,
Joh 6:69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”
Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”
Where do you read "the elect" here? Did not Jesus choose Judas?
2) ''That no man can come unto me," (hoti oudeis dunatai elthein pros me) "That no one is enabled to come to me," by volition, will, or choice; No man can do it except he be called of God, moved, enlightened by His spirit, and made to know his need of and provision for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, Pro_1:19-31. Even as Saul of Tarsus was, Act_9:4-6.
3) "Except it were given unto him of my Father." (ean me e dedomenon auto ek tou patros) "Unless it is having been given or doled out to him of my Father," Joh_6:37; Joh_6:44; Eph_2:8-9; Rom_10:17; Joh_1:11-13.
Διὰ τοῦτο. For this cause; Joh_5:16; Joh_5:18, Joh_7:22, Joh_8:47, Joh_9:23, Joh_10:17, Joh_12:18; Joh_12:27; Joh_12:39, &c.
οὐδεὶς δύναται. See on Joh_6:44; Joh_6:37. The necessity for the internal preparation, the drawing by the Father, was strongly shewn in the case of Judas, who would be still more alienated by Christ’s refusal to be made a king (Joh_6:15) and by the σκληρὸς λόγος (Joh_6:60). The ἐκ indicates the Father as the source of conversion; except it have been given him from the Father: comp. Joh_3:27.
J.
Joh 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
Joh 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
Joh 6:66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.
Joh 6:67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?”
Joh 6:68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,
Joh 6:69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”
Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”
Where do you read "the elect" here? Did not Jesus choose Judas?
2) ''That no man can come unto me," (hoti oudeis dunatai elthein pros me) "That no one is enabled to come to me," by volition, will, or choice; No man can do it except he be called of God, moved, enlightened by His spirit, and made to know his need of and provision for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, Pro_1:19-31. Even as Saul of Tarsus was, Act_9:4-6.
3) "Except it were given unto him of my Father." (ean me e dedomenon auto ek tou patros) "Unless it is having been given or doled out to him of my Father," Joh_6:37; Joh_6:44; Eph_2:8-9; Rom_10:17; Joh_1:11-13.
Διὰ τοῦτο. For this cause; Joh_5:16; Joh_5:18, Joh_7:22, Joh_8:47, Joh_9:23, Joh_10:17, Joh_12:18; Joh_12:27; Joh_12:39, &c.
οὐδεὶς δύναται. See on Joh_6:44; Joh_6:37. The necessity for the internal preparation, the drawing by the Father, was strongly shewn in the case of Judas, who would be still more alienated by Christ’s refusal to be made a king (Joh_6:15) and by the σκληρὸς λόγος (Joh_6:60). The ἐκ indicates the Father as the source of conversion; except it have been given him from the Father: comp. Joh_3:27.
J.
@Johann
I've given you scripture, and 1 Jn 2:2 is only about the elect who Christ intercedes for Rom 8:33-34
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
I've given you scripture, and 1 Jn 2:2 is only about the elect who Christ intercedes for Rom 8:33-34
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
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I said the elect and the non-elect. Nothing within the Bible is there accidentally but was anticipated by God and/or caused by God to occur exactly as it did to convey certain spiritual doctrines and truths which God wanted conveyed.
[2Ti 3:16 KJV]
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[Jhn 8:28 KJV]-
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
[Jhn 14:31 KJV]
31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
[2Ti 3:16 KJV]
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[Jhn 8:28 KJV]-
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
[Jhn 14:31 KJV]
31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
I am not against the doctrine of election/selection, just so you know-
Here is something I want you to think about-Is faith a gift? Or is salvation a gift? Or both?
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,--
Eph 2:8 Τῇ Tē|G3588|Art-DFS|- γὰρ gar|G1063|Conj|For χάριτί chariti|G5485|N-DFS|by grace ἐστε este|G1510|V-PIA-2P|you are σεσῳσμένοι sesōsmenoi|G4982|V-RPM/P-NMP|saved διὰ dia|G1223|Prep|through πίστεως· pisteōs|G4102|N-GFS|faith, καὶ kai|G2532|Conj|and τοῦτο touto|G3778|DPro-NNS|this οὐκ ouk|G3756|Adv|not ἐξ ex|G1537|Prep|of ὑμῶν, hymōn|G4771|PPro-G2P|yourselves; Θεοῦ Theou|G2316|N-GMS|[it is] of God τὸ to|G3588|Art-NNS|the δῶρον· dōron|G1435|N-NNS|gift,
let's parse this verse-
For by grace are ye saved - By mere favor. It is not by your Own merit; it is not because you have any claim. This is a favorite doctrine with Paul, as it is with all who love the Lord Jesus in sincerity; compare the notes at Rom_1:7; Rom_3:24, note.
Through faith - Grace bestowed through faith, or in connection with believing; s
And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered “that” - τοῦτο touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word “faith” - πίστις pistis - is in the feminine.
The word “that,” therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to “the salvation by grace” of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield.
Many critics, however, as Doddridge, Beza, Piscator, and Chrysostom, maintain that the word “that” (τοῦτο touto) refers to “faith” (πίστις pistis); and Doddridge maintains that such a use is common in the New Testament. As a matter of grammar this opinion is certainly doubtful, if not u Mankind must respond to God's offer of grace and forgiveness in Christ
ntenable; but as a matter of theology it is a question of very little importance.
"through faith" Faith receives God's free gift in Christ (cf. Rom. 3:22,25; 4:5; 9:30; Gal. 2:16; 3:24; 1 Pet. 1:5).
(cf. John 1:12; 3:16-17,36; 6:40; 11:25-26; Rom. 10:9-13).
God deals with fallen mankind by means of a covenant. He always takes the initiative (cf. John 6:44, 65) and sets the agenda and the boundaries (cf. Mark 1:15; Acts 3:16,19; 20:21). He allows fallen mankind to participate in their own salvation by responding to His covenant offer. The mandated response is both initial and continuing faith. It involves repentance, obedience, service, worship, and perseverance.
The term "faith" in the OT is a metaphorical extension of a stable stance. It came to denote that which is sure, trustworthy, dependable, and faithful. None of these describe even redeemed fallen mankind. It is not mankind's trustworthiness, or faithfulness, or dependability, but God's. We trust in His trustworthy promises, not our trustworthiness! Covenant obedience flows from gratitude! The focus has always been on His faithfulness, not the believers' faith! Faith cannot save anyone. Only grace saves, but it is received by faith. The focus is never on the amount of faith (cf. Matt. 17:20), but on its object (Jesus).
"and that"
This is the Greek demonstrative pronoun (touto), which is neuter in gender. The closest nouns, "grace" and "faith," are both feminine in gender. Therefore, this must refer to the whole process of our salvation in the finished work of Christ.
There is another possibility based on a similar grammatical construction in Phil. 1:28. If this is the case then this adverbial phrase relates to faith, which is also a gift of God's grace! Here is the mystery of God's sovereignty and human free will.
-------------------------------------------------
And that
Not faith, but the salvation.
Of God
Emphatic. Of God is it the gift.
And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tautē, and so refers not to pistis (feminine) or to charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex humōn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (dōron) and not the result of our work.
Would you agree free will is a biblical concept?
Here is something I want you to think about-Is faith a gift? Or is salvation a gift? Or both?
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,--
Eph 2:8 Τῇ Tē|G3588|Art-DFS|- γὰρ gar|G1063|Conj|For χάριτί chariti|G5485|N-DFS|by grace ἐστε este|G1510|V-PIA-2P|you are σεσῳσμένοι sesōsmenoi|G4982|V-RPM/P-NMP|saved διὰ dia|G1223|Prep|through πίστεως· pisteōs|G4102|N-GFS|faith, καὶ kai|G2532|Conj|and τοῦτο touto|G3778|DPro-NNS|this οὐκ ouk|G3756|Adv|not ἐξ ex|G1537|Prep|of ὑμῶν, hymōn|G4771|PPro-G2P|yourselves; Θεοῦ Theou|G2316|N-GMS|[it is] of God τὸ to|G3588|Art-NNS|the δῶρον· dōron|G1435|N-NNS|gift,
let's parse this verse-
For by grace are ye saved - By mere favor. It is not by your Own merit; it is not because you have any claim. This is a favorite doctrine with Paul, as it is with all who love the Lord Jesus in sincerity; compare the notes at Rom_1:7; Rom_3:24, note.
Through faith - Grace bestowed through faith, or in connection with believing; s
And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered “that” - τοῦτο touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word “faith” - πίστις pistis - is in the feminine.
The word “that,” therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to “the salvation by grace” of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield.
Many critics, however, as Doddridge, Beza, Piscator, and Chrysostom, maintain that the word “that” (τοῦτο touto) refers to “faith” (πίστις pistis); and Doddridge maintains that such a use is common in the New Testament. As a matter of grammar this opinion is certainly doubtful, if not u Mankind must respond to God's offer of grace and forgiveness in Christ
ntenable; but as a matter of theology it is a question of very little importance.
"through faith" Faith receives God's free gift in Christ (cf. Rom. 3:22,25; 4:5; 9:30; Gal. 2:16; 3:24; 1 Pet. 1:5).
(cf. John 1:12; 3:16-17,36; 6:40; 11:25-26; Rom. 10:9-13).
God deals with fallen mankind by means of a covenant. He always takes the initiative (cf. John 6:44, 65) and sets the agenda and the boundaries (cf. Mark 1:15; Acts 3:16,19; 20:21). He allows fallen mankind to participate in their own salvation by responding to His covenant offer. The mandated response is both initial and continuing faith. It involves repentance, obedience, service, worship, and perseverance.
The term "faith" in the OT is a metaphorical extension of a stable stance. It came to denote that which is sure, trustworthy, dependable, and faithful. None of these describe even redeemed fallen mankind. It is not mankind's trustworthiness, or faithfulness, or dependability, but God's. We trust in His trustworthy promises, not our trustworthiness! Covenant obedience flows from gratitude! The focus has always been on His faithfulness, not the believers' faith! Faith cannot save anyone. Only grace saves, but it is received by faith. The focus is never on the amount of faith (cf. Matt. 17:20), but on its object (Jesus).
"and that"
This is the Greek demonstrative pronoun (touto), which is neuter in gender. The closest nouns, "grace" and "faith," are both feminine in gender. Therefore, this must refer to the whole process of our salvation in the finished work of Christ.
There is another possibility based on a similar grammatical construction in Phil. 1:28. If this is the case then this adverbial phrase relates to faith, which is also a gift of God's grace! Here is the mystery of God's sovereignty and human free will.
-------------------------------------------------
And that
Not faith, but the salvation.
Of God
Emphatic. Of God is it the gift.
And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tautē, and so refers not to pistis (feminine) or to charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex humōn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (dōron) and not the result of our work.
Would you agree free will is a biblical concept?