How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

In past posts, you've suggested that "the dead in Christ" get caught up TO meet the Lord IN THE AIR *prior to* when the "we which are alive and remain" are "caught up" THEREAFTER.

Is this still your view?

Or are you agreeing that they will be "caught up TOGETHER WITH them" ("caught up" at the SAME TIME as them, in ONE "SNATCH-action" ONLY)??

Which is it that you are saying (now)?



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[to go along with my other post about DT's changing the text from "shall rise [verb] FIRST [adverb]" TO INSTEAD be saying [supposedly] "THE FIRST [adjective] to..." - https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/4-16.htm --notice there is NO "definite article ['the']" with the word "first" as DT suggests there is (so as to force the text to comport with HIS view, instead)...]

You are arguing over what you seek to reject which is this: at His Second Coming the Dead in Christ Rise FIRST = No Rapture until the Dead in Christ Rise FIRST.

If you are saying (now, differently from what you've said in past posts) that "the dead in Christ SHALL RISE FIRST" means they are "resurrected from the dead / from their graves" FIRST, *before the next thing*--which next thing is the "caught up TOGETHER WITH THEM" thing, which "caught up / SNATCH-action" occurs ONLY ONCE, at ONE POINT IN TIME ONLY--then we can at least agree insofar as this point goes: the "caught up" ACTION only occurs ONCE (when BOTH the "dead in Christ" [as resurrected] AND the "we which are alive and remain" are "caught up [/raptured]" AT THE SAME MOMENT, TOGETHER).

Do you agree with this point (though differing from your past posts, suggesting they are "caught up" SEPARATELY, at DISTINCT MOMENTS, the one following the other, in time... as indicated by the word "THEN" as YOU were perceiving the text, per your past posts)??


"Rapture = caught up"


(the "caught up [/rapture / snatch]" occurs only at ONE SINGULAR POINT IN TIME, not separately for these two categories: "the dead in Christ" and the "we which are alive and remain")

Agree??

Who are the ALIVE ones that are 'caught up' meeting in the Clouds as the word 'together' signifies

"caught up [verb] TOGETHER [ADVERB] with" = at the same time that they will be "caught up" (not at distinct moments, separately "caught up/ raptured")

The VERB and the ADVERB *connect* (you are disconnecting these!)


the "we which are alive and remain" will be caught up at the SAME MOMENT that "the dead in Christ" (as RESURRECTED from the dead / from their graves [that's what "shall RISE [G450] first" means!]) will ALSO be "caught up" (together in ONE SINGULAR "SNATCH-action"--from the earth where we'll all be located "TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" where HIS "presence / parousia" will be located)



[BOTH will experience "caught up / rapture / snatch"-action TOGETHER AT THE SAME TIME!! not one prior to the other, and NOT JUST THE ONE component!!]

Ok, let's go with that - FIRST the Dead in Christ are RISEN - AFTER that the Rapture - Together we are Caught Up

This occurs at HIS Second Coming in/on the Clouds - Rapture is completed AFTER the Dead in Christ are Risen = which is the First Resurrection.

What you describe is post-trib not pretrib. Pretrib teaches they won't have to endure the great trib.

QUOTE="Aaron56, post: 4651941, member: 308915"]For some, the fear of rejecting the pre-trib rapture is that they know they are not prepared to endure what is coming: God is a nice person to sing about on Sundays but stands afar off from their lives. If the high point of your interaction with God is sitting in a pew, singing songs, listening to what someone else has to say about God, pot lucks, etc. you need to get out of there. You’ll be kept immature for the benefit of the institution. And, you are correct to discern that you will not be ready.[/QUOTE]

Rising first means that happens before rapture does so not the same exact moment but the two events do happen closely.

You missed my point.

Because that was not the point I was covering, when I posted that to DavidTree.

(meaning, the back-and-forth convo we were engaged in, and the point being addressed therein--you're missing what that point was that was being covered in that discussion)

1a.) The Dead in Christ Rise FIRST -
1b.) AFTER that we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them (Resurrected Saints) in the the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

A before B.
So simple a child can understand - free yourself from the carnal intellect of man.

Aaron56 (from what I gather of his postings) is NOT a "pre-tribber," and thus is not arguing a "pre-trib" perspective in that post you quoted of his (as you perceived him to have been).

Read it again, with that in mind.

I have been tired a lot friend.

The Messiah the people expected was the warrior conquer. I forget which book brought this to light.

Yeshua Ben David
Why Do the Jewish People Reject Jesus as Their Messiah?
By Walter Riggans

Jesus Ben Joseph
An Introduction to Jesus the Jew
By Walter Riggans

Hebrews 9

Holman Christian Standard Bible



Old Covenant Ministry
9 Now the first covenant also had regulations for ministry and an earthly sanctuary. 2 For a tabernacle was set up, and in the first room, which is called the holy place, were the lampstand, the table, and the presentation loaves. 3 Behind the second curtain, the tabernacle was called the most holy place. 4 It contained the gold altar of incense and the ark of the covenant, covered with gold on all sides, in which there was a gold jar containing the manna, Aaron’s staff that budded, and the tablets of the covenant. 5 The cherubim of glory were above it overshadowing the mercy seat. It is not possible to speak about these things in detail right now.
6 With these things set up this way, the priests enter the first room repeatedly, performing their ministry. 7 But the high priest alone enters the second room, and he does that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was making it clear that the way into the most holy place had not yet been disclosed while the first tabernacle was still standing. 9 This is a symbol for the present time, during which gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the worshiper’s conscience. 10 They are physical regulations and only deal with food, drink, and various washings imposed until the time of restoration.
New Covenant Ministry
11 But the Messiah has appeared, high priest of the good things that have come.[a] In the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands (that is, not of this creation), 12 He entered the most holy place once for all, not by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a young cow, sprinkling those who are defiled, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of the Messiah, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse our[b] consciences from dead works to serve the living God?
15 Therefore, He is the mediator of a new covenant,[c] so that those who are called might receive the promise of the eternal inheritance, because a death has taken place for redemption from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. 16 Where a will exists, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17 For a will is valid only when people die, since it is never in force while the one who made it is living. 18 That is why even the first covenant was inaugurated with blood. 19 For when every command had been proclaimed by Moses to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, along with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll itself and all the people, 20 saying, This is the blood of the covenant that God has commanded for you.[d] 21 In the same way, he sprinkled the tabernacle and all the articles of worship with blood. 22 According to the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves to be purified with better sacrifices than these. 24 For the Messiah did not enter a sanctuary made with hands (only a model[e] of the true one) but into heaven itself, so that He might now appear in the presence of God for us. 25 He did not do this to offer Himself many times, as the high priest enters the sanctuary yearly with the blood of another. 26 Otherwise, He would have had to suffer many times since the foundation of the world. But now He has appeared one time, at the end of the ages, for the removal of sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for people to die once—and after this, judgment— 28 so also the Messiah, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but[f] to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him.
Footnotes

1. Hebrews 9:11 Other mss read that are to come
2. Hebrews 9:14 Other mss read your
3. Hebrews 9:15 The Gk word used here and in vv. 15-18 can be translated covenant, will, or testament.
4. Hebrews 9:20 Ex 24:8
5. Hebrews 9:24 Or antitype, or figure
6. Hebrews 9:28 Lit time, apart from sin,

What exactly do you think you proved?

You would need to show noah either after or during the flood rescued.
Lot either after or during the fires of sodom

The baby Jesus taken away during or after the massacre of Herod.

Yet you reframe that. ...ahem..SCRIPTURE DOES NOT LIE

Yes scripture does not lie.
Pretrib rapture is easily defended by a babe with a bible

Didache Chapter 16. Watchfulness; The Coming of the Lord
Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord comes. Matthew 24:42 But often shall you come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you be not made perfect in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; Matthew 24:11-12 for when lawlessness increases, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, Matthew 24:10 and then shall appear the world-deceiver as the Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and shall perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an outspreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven. https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm

"
5. Eschatology and Future Salvation. It is only in chapter 16 that the Didache approaches the eschatological orientation which pervades Barnabas (§2:2-3, §5:3). It is true that the Two Ways section aludes to "the reward" (4.7b; 5.2c = Barn. 19.11a; 20.2c), and the prayers repeat traditional language about the coming "kingdom" and the activity of "evil" or the "Evil One" (8.2; 9.4; 10.5), the passing away of "this world" and
the coming of the Lord (10.6), but these are extremely faint echoes and inspire no confidence that the community which used them was waiting with bated breath for the consummation. Apart from chapter 16 we find that such matters as "the Lord's return," resurrection, judgment, and final salvation have no real role in the Didache. There are a few references to "judgment" in Didache 1-15, but none of them are strictly eschatological (4.3; 5.2; 11.11f.). The "resurrection" is mentioned only in 16.6f. There is no clear [[69]] concept of a new creation in the last days (cf. 4.10b[?], but only general exhortations to "watch" and "be ready" (16.1) so as to be "perfect" (16.2; see 1.4; 6.2; 10.5) and "endure" to salvation (16.5; cf. 1.4 var.; 5.2m; 8.2; 10.5).
...
III ESCHATOLOGICAL ADMONITION (16.1-8) [§2.7; §8.5.4]
16 Watch over your life [see 1.1] -- do not let your lamps be extinguished, nor your waist be ungirded [cf. Luke 12.35]. But be ready, for you do not know when our Lord is coming [see Matt. 24.42, 44; Mark 13.35; Luke 12.40] 2 And be gathered together frequently, seeking out the things which are necessary [[176]] for your souls [see §2.3] For the whole time of your faith will be of no use to you unless you are perfected in the last time [= Barn 4.9b; §2.3]. 3. For in the last days, false prophets and corrupters will abound [Matt 24.11], and they will turn the "sheep" into "wolves" and love will be changed to hate [Matt 24.12] 4. For as lawlessness increases, men will hate one another [cf 2.7], and persecute and betray [Matt 24.10], and then the world-deceiver will appear as a son of God and will do signs and wonders [Mark 13.22 par.], and the earth will be given into his hands and he will commit such abominations as have never been done before [see Dan 12.1; Mark 13.19 par.]. 5. Then the creation of men will come to the fire which tests and many will fail and will perish But those who endure in their faith will be saved [Mark 13.13 par.] by him who was accursed.\j/ 6. And then the signs of the truth will appear: first the sign spread out in heaven [Matt 24.30], then the sign of a sound of [[177]] a trumpet [Matt. 24.31; 1 Thess. 4.16], and thirdly, the resurrection of the dead [1 Cor 15.52] -- 7. yet not of all (the dead), but as it was said: The Lord will come and all his saints with him [Zech. 14.5b]. 8. Then the world will see the Lord coming on the clouds of heaven\k/ with power and dominion [Mark 13.26 parr.] to repay each man according to his work [Ps. 62.12; Matt. 16.27], with justice, before all men and angels. Amen.
...
16.1-8. Certain aspects of this apocalyptic "appendix" have been discussed in §2.3, 7. In general, it is closely related to the "synoptic apocalypse" in Mark 13; Matt. 24-25; Luke 21--see also 1 Thess. 4.13--5. 11; 2 Thess. 2.1-12; 1 Cor. 15.23-28; Jude; 2 Pet. 2-3; Rev. 3-22. Furthermore, the Ethiopic Apocalypse of Peter (M. R. James, 511) opens with a strikingly parallel passage, including references to [[176]] the sign-working "deceiver" (see 16.4), the cross preceding the Lord as he comes (also in the Epistle of the Apostles 16 [or 27; James, 490]; cf. 16.6, the "sign spread out in heaven"!), the regal procession and judgment (16.8). On the imagery of that which is commendable being "corrupted" to its opposite (16.3), cf. 2 Baruch 48.35, "honor will be turned to shame, and strength humiliated to contempt,...and beauty will become ugliness." The "Antichrist" figure in 16.4 is frequent in apocalyptic literature, Jewish and Christian--see Dan. 7.25; 11.36ff.; 2 Thess. 2.8; 1 John 2.18; Rev. 13, and so on. The testing by fire in 16.5 (cf. Zech. 13.9; 1 Pet. 1.7; Rev. 16.8 f.) does not represent the final world conflagration envisioned in some sources (as 2 Pet. 3.10, 12--with a Stoic background), but the climactic crisis for mankind before the triumphal return of "the Lord" (apparently Jesus--see §9.8). Perhaps the allusion to the fiery destruction of the lawless men in Qumran Hymns 6.17 ff. reflects a similar concept (cf. Rev.
20.15). In fact, it may be that 16.5 is intended as a reference to judgment taking place before the Lord's return (but then, what does "the world" mean in 16.8a?), and that the Didache should end as in MS H, without further reference to judgment. The resurrection of 16.6-7, in any case, is only for "the saints," as a reward for endurance and a sign of triumph. "
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rak/publics/didache/didache.htm is a commentary on the didache

Mark 13

Easy-to-Read Version



Jesus Warns About the Future
13 Jesus was leaving the Temple area. One of his followers said to him, “Teacher, look how big those stones are! What beautiful buildings!”
2 Jesus said, “Do you see these great buildings? They will all be destroyed. Every stone will be thrown down to the ground. Not one stone will be left on another.”
3 Later, Jesus was sitting at a place on the Mount of Olives. He was alone with Peter, James, John, and Andrew. They could all see the Temple, and they said to Jesus, 4 “Tell us when these things will happen. And what will show us it is time for them to happen?”
5 Jesus said to them, “Be careful! Don’t let anyone fool you. 6 Many people will come and use my name. They will say, ‘I am the Messiah,[a]’ and they will fool many people. 7 You will hear about wars that are being fought. And you will hear stories about other wars beginning. But don’t be afraid. These things must happen before the end comes. 8 Nations will fight against other nations. Kingdoms will fight against other kingdoms. There will be times when there is no food for people to eat. And there will be earthquakes in different places. These things are only the beginning of troubles, like the first pains of a woman giving birth.
9 “You must be careful! There are people who will arrest you and take you to be judged for being my followers. They will beat you in their synagogues. You will be forced to stand before kings and governors. You will tell them about me. 10 Before the end comes, the Good News must be told to all nations. 11 Even when you are arrested and put on trial, don’t worry about what you will say. Say whatever God tells you at the time. It will not really be you speaking. It will be the Holy Spirit.
12 “Brothers will turn against their own brothers and hand them over to be killed. Fathers will hand over their own children to be killed. Children will fight against their own parents and have them killed. 13 All people will hate you because you follow me. But those who remain faithful to the end will be saved.
14 “You will see ‘the terrible thing that causes destruction.’[b] You will see this thing standing in the place where it should not be.” (Reader, I trust you understand what this means.) “Everyone in Judea at that time should run away to the mountains. 15 They should run away without wasting time to stop for anything. If someone is on the roof of their house, they must not go down to take things out of the house. 16 If someone is in the field, they must not go back to get a coat.
17 “During that time it will be hard for women who are pregnant or have small babies. 18 Pray that these things will not happen in winter, 19 because those days will be full of trouble. There will be more trouble than has ever happened since the beginning, when God made the world. And nothing that bad will ever happen again. 20 But the Lord has decided to make that terrible time short. If it were not made short, no one could survive. But the Lord will make that time short to help the special people he has chosen.
21 “Someone might say to you at that time, ‘Look, there is the Messiah!’ Or another person might say, ‘There he is!’ But don’t believe them. 22 False messiahs and false prophets will come and do miracles and wonders,[c] trying to fool the people God has chosen, if that is possible. 23 So be careful. Now I have warned you about all this before it happens.
When Jesus, the Son of Man, Comes Again
24 “During the days following that time of trouble,
‘The sun will become dark,
and the moon will not give light.
25 The stars will fall from the sky,
and everything in the sky will be changed.’[d]
26 “Then people will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 He will send his angels all around the earth. They will gather his chosen people from every part of the earth.
28 “The fig tree teaches us a lesson: When its branches become green and soft, and new leaves begin to grow, then you know that summer is very near. 29 In the same way, when you see all these things happening, you will know that the time[e] is very near, already present. 30 I assure you that all these things will happen while some of the people of this time are still living. 31 The whole world, earth and sky, will be destroyed, but my words will last forever.
32 “No one knows when that day or time will be. The Son and the angels in heaven don’t know when that day or time will be. Only the Father knows. 33 Be careful! Always be ready. You don’t know when that time will be.
34 “It’s like a man who goes on a trip and leaves his house in the care of his servants. He gives each one a special job to do. He tells the servant guarding the door to always be ready. And this is what I am telling you now. 35 You must always be ready. You don’t know when the owner of the house will come back. He might come in the afternoon, or at midnight, or in the early morning, or when the sun rises. 36 If you are always ready, he will not find you sleeping, even if he comes back earlier than expected. 37 I tell you this, and I say it to everyone: ‘Be ready!’”
Footnotes

1. Mark 13:6 the Messiah Literally “the one,” meaning the chosen one sent by God. See “Messiah” in the Word List and Mt. 24:5.
2. Mark 13:14 ‘the terrible thing … destruction’ See Dan. 9:27; 11:31; 12:11.
3. Mark 13:22 miracles and wonders Here, amazing acts done by Satan’s power.
4. Mark 13:25 See Isa. 13:10; 34:4.
5. Mark 13:29 time The time Jesus has been talking about when something important will happen. See Lk. 21:31, where Jesus says that this is the time for God’s kingdom to come.

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QUOTE="Absolutely, post: 4652349, member: 272916"]Yes scripture does not lie.
Pretrib rapture is easily defended by a babe with a bible[/QUOTE]

Scripture cannot lie

The Scripture is the evidence, the enlightenment and is eternal:
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away." - Matt 24:35

Tribulation in from this world is not God's wrath.

Do you want the Truth or error? Do you love God more then men? Do you fear man over fearing God?

You mentioned that pre-trib is easily defended by a babe - but can you, as a babe in Christ accept the challenge that Christ Himself set forth:

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. - Proverbs 30: 5-6