How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[rayzor]

Still doesn't change that great trib is the wrath of Satan when he persecutes and kills Christians. God allows that to happen and will bring His wrath down when the trib ends at the sounding of 7th trump.

4 like 10 day?...

 

[GaryA]

So when God says He will add/impose the plagues of this book (to those certain ones), it's not at all His "wrath" doing so??

I'm not going to fall for it - just give up - I don't believe everything in Revelation is part of the 'Wrath of God'...

 

[Nehemiah6]

The following verses speak of still-living persons who will have come to faith in/during/within the future Trib years (following our Rapture) who will, at the END of the Trib, ENTER the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom

I have no doubts about this. My point is that the Resurrection/Rapture of the saints is for the CULMINATION OF SALVATION (which is the resurrection, perfection and glorification of the saints). See Romans 8. At this time Christ comes FOR His saints.

However, the Second Coming of Christ is for the DAMNATION of those who do not obey the Gospel, as well as the enemies of Christ: And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. At this time Christ comes WITH His saints.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So when God says He will add/impose the plagues of this book (to those certain ones), it's not at all His "wrath" doing so?? Just HALF SO??

[ ^ and [/because] not just "the SEVEN LAST plagues" which the text states of them (7 Vials/7 LAST plagues), "For IN THEM the wrath of God IS COMPLETED" (NOT "is STARTED AND COMPLETED," as you suggest it says)]

I'm not going to fall for it - just give up - I don't believe everything in Revelation is part of the 'Wrath of God'...

Did I ever say that chpts 1-3 are His "wrath"?? Or the book's conclusion (after His "return" in chpt 19)? Nope. = )

So... I could say, I don't either.

 

[ewq1938]

I have no doubts about this. My point is that the Resurrection/Rapture of the saints is for the CULMINATION OF SALVATION (which is the resurrection, perfection and glorification of the saints). See Romans 8. At this time Christ comes FOR His saints.

However, the Second Coming of Christ is for the DAMNATION of those who do not obey the Gospel, as well as the enemies of Christ: And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. At this time Christ comes WITH His saints.

You are separating the rewarding found at the rapture from the judging and violence done at the same day.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Scripture says both rewards for saved and wrath for unsaved happen when Christ returns at the 7th trump so you are wrong to try to separate them into two different days.

 

[peldom10]

No one taught a pre-trib rapture until John Darby, and Anglican preacher, in the mid 1800s. So the teaching is relatively new. Now, being new does not necessarily mean a teaching is defunct: while God never changes, He reveals knowledge and understanding in a progressive manner. Things that we have not contemplated before, suddenly come alive to us in the scriptures. So, while the ideas are new to us, they were always established in the mind of God.

But the manner is which things are "revealed" should be examined. So let's look at the manner in which the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture came to be a Baptist staple.

Dwight Young, professor emeritus at Brandeis University of Near Eastern and Judaic Studies, personally corresponded with a friend of mine several years ago. My friend was a young lawyer ( as an aside, had George Bush Senior been elected for a second term, there is a good possibility that my friend would have been chosen as a state supreme court judge.) Dwight was a student at Dallas Theological Seminary at the same time Hal Lindsey studied there, so this is more than 50 years ago or so. They were graduate students.

Dwight said the professors were discussing Darbyism, and whether or not it was a valid theology. This graduate student, Hal Lindsey, wrote a master’s thesis on the subject of this form of dispensationalism and the rapture. He later turned that thesis into a book called The Late Great Planet Earth. Now some of you may not know about this book, but it was a runaway bestseller. It made a lot of money. According to Dwight, that is where the Baptists made the switch. They saw that there was a market for this doctrine, and they ran with it. Dwight later moved up to and was a professor of biblical studies, biblical languages at Brandeis University, from which he retired, and he was in a state of retirement when my friend met him. So, 50 years from the writing of a master's thesis, the teaching is so entrenched in the Baptist circles you would think it was the gospel.

Historically, nobody ever thought of this doctrine before Darby. But once he popularized it in the context of dispensationalism, meaning things wrap up within blocks of time, people began to embrace it because they did not have to trust the Holy Spirit. If you are going to have any measure of understanding of prophetic Scripture, the end from the beginning and where we are at this point in time, you are going to have to walk in the Spirit. He is the One who wrote the Book; He is the One who is perfectly capable of interpreting it. And the folly of logic and reason and man-made constructs, such as dispensationalism, will lead you to increasing folly, such as the rapture.

God knows the end from the beginning, and the greatest moment of the Body of Christ is in the midst of the darkness in Revelation. That darkness has no potential to blunt our display of the glory of God, the radiance of God’s glory, or to represent Him exactly. It has no ability to influence that at all. This is the time for the glory of what God has been doing, when He established the heavens and the earth for the purpose of establishing a corporate man in creation so that He might be seen in creation as who He is. He is on a path wherein not only will He show who He is in all of His glory through the corporate body, but He will bring the enemy to judgment as well.

Grace and Peace,

Aaron56

WOW...that is not true.
My Bible always has and always will tell us the rapture will occur. New age religion approaches will not change that.
The Bible always has said;

I Thess. 14; 16, 17...et al.. Those writers are well established in history...long before late comers....as who?...Darby.

What is wrong with understanding English writings as in King James 1611 edition?

 

[Diakonos]

The speakers work 4 me. I guess you could go right 2 u tube an type in targum.U may or may not get the video on Genesis 1:1

yes but that has 2 do with motive
i was taught both...lean not on your own understanding....Jesus is not easy 2 find..1The kingdom of god is like a hidden treasure..in other words people must struggle to find him...We on the other hand when not in spirit must try 2 b clear.

Your writing is undiscernible. Please use appropriate grammar and spelling if you want to be clearly understood.

yes

So you agree with what I have said. Perfect

 

[tanakh]

First off, the word in the text is NOT "fall"... the Greeks had a word for "to fall"--"pipto"--and the word in verse 3 is NOT THAT word.



But imagine for a minute (just for argument's sake) that it *were* the word "fall" (it's not!)

Is this guy trying to tell us he's never heard the term "fall out" used in the following sense (if not, he really DOESN'T "get out" enough! lol)


[from a dictionary]

"Fall Out Meaning
Fall Out is an idiom. The meaning of this idiom is (figuratively) To leave one's current location to report for duty at a new location."

[end quoting https://www.urdupoint.com/dictionary/idioms/2079/fall-out.html ; bold/underline mine]


____________


... but again... the word is NOT "fall" or "fall away"...the Greeks had a word for "fall/to fall"-- "pipto"--and this is NOT the word used in v.3.



Rather, the word is "apostasia" ("later form for apostasis"-per Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon [1871]--"apo stasis" - "a standing away from [from a previous standing]")


[from BibleHub]

"HELPS Word-studies
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing.""

[end quoting; bold and underline emphasis mine]



... and in the case of our text here (v.3) it is used with the definite article ("the"--"THE departure"--the one Paul had JUST referred to in the text previously)

So what you are really saying is that one needs to be able to read and understand Greek before you can understand the Bible properly. Have you heard of context? Also some KJV Bibles actually have
a heading referring to Apostasy for this passage. Apart from that no reputable Theologian advocated
a pre tribulation Rapture before the early eighteen hundreds although a few notable people attacked
it. The predominant belief was what is now called Historicism but then didn't have a name because
it was considered by people to be the natural set of beliefs.

 

[DavidTree]

No. He did not. That is what you have done by making a mishmash of the Rapture and the Second Coming. The entire issue boils down to poor comprehension. The first question to ask is this: "Can a coming for salvation be the same as a coming for damnation?" And the absurdity of your idea will become quite evident.

Nehemiah my best friend - have you gone mad like Mr. Twister and reject the word of the Lord???

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18

Put your complete trust in the Word - reject man made theories.

Peace and love to you my Brother

 

[DavidTree]

...says the guy who cannot distinguish between: "our Rapture / SNATCH / caught up TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" / "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" and "the Day of the Lord [EARTHLY-located TIME PERIOD of JUDGMENTs unfolding]"

... thus blurs together into one big mish-mash of mush just what it is that Paul is actually conveying in 2Th2:3-9a (much of which entails the CHRONOLOGY / SEQUENCE... But one cannot see this "sequence / chronology" as long as one incorrectly EQUATES these two very DISTINCT things named above, as you continue to do)




Paul states in 1Th5:2-3 that "the Day of the Lord" ARRIVES exactly like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that comes upon a woman...

...you disagree with Paul, on that point.

Nehemiah my best friend - have you gone mad like Mr. Twister and reject the word of the Lord???

Seven Steps to Peace in Christ and Freedom from error.

#1 Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

#2 By the word of the Lord = we declare to you (Body of Christ) that

#3 we who are alive and remain (Body of Christ) = until the coming of the Lord

#4 will by no means precede (go before) = /Who?/ = those who have fallen asleep = the Dead in Christ.

#5 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God,

#6 and the dead in Christ will be the FIRST to rise.

#7 After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18

Put your complete trust in the Word - reject man made theories.

Peace and love to my Brother and Sisters in Christ who LOVE HIM and HIS WORD and Do Not tell a Lie.

 

[walknlight]

 

[DavidTree]

i do not have time to lissen - can you give the summary - Thank You

 

[Aaron56]

For some, the fear of rejecting the pre-trib rapture is that they know they are not prepared to endure what is coming: God is a nice person to sing about on Sundays but stands afar off from their lives. If the high point of your interaction with God is sitting in a pew, singing songs, listening to what someone else has to say about God, pot lucks, etc. you need to get out of there. You’ll be kept immature for the benefit of the institution. And, you are correct to discern that you will not be ready.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I've always enjoyed the song and the passion behind it (I agree with that aspect of it).




The problem with the lyrics is, that the phrase "midnight cry" is from a CONTEXT which is not speaking of "the Bride [/Wife] [singular]" (and "the MARRIAGE" itself, that the "Bride/Wife [singular]" pertains--the presently "betrothed" who is [and will be] the "A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR]" per 2Cor11:2)...

...but is instead in the CONTEXT speaking of the "10 [and 5] VirginS [PLURAL]" who He is NOT coming at the point to "MARRY" (that's not the PURPOSE or the point of the Matt25:1-13 passage--which is, instead, about "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [aka the earthly MK age--its inauguration, commencing at His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19--see also Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347].])

--the "5 VirginS" are not who He is "MARRYING"--instead, they "went in *with [G3326 - meta- ACCOMPANYING] Him to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (not "the MARRIAGE" itself, which will have already taken place, by that point)-- https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/25-10.htm (Matt25:10)

[ *note: NOT the "G4862 - syn- UNIONed-with" word (1Th4:17, Col3:4, etc), used regarding US/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY]



--"at midnight" is NOT when "the Bride of Christ will rise" (we will not step one foot into the "IN THE NIGHT" time period [aka the DOTL Trib aspect, "7-yrs"])...

Rather, the phrase SAID OF US/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY (instead) is this: "in the twinkling of an eye"... which is (distinct from the above):
[in the twinkling of an eye-] "the precise moment when one day turns into the next when the sun is eight-degrees below the horizon, AT SUNDOWN"

(again, we will NOT step one foot into the "IN THE NIGHT / DARK / DARKNESS" time period that commences at the moment "the DOTL ARRIVES" [aka the first SEAL at the START of the "7 yrs"] which is also when the "whose COMING / ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia" of the "man of sin" [2Th2:9a] also occurs ["IN HIS TIME" aka "IN THE NIGHT / DARK / DARKNESS" time period... <--and its those things, for one, because ALL the "Lightbulb" will have just been raptured / snatched UP / AWAY / OUTTA-HERE! ... and well before the "at midnight a cry" will take place (IN/DURING/WITHIN the Trib yrs) and pertaining to the "10 [and 5] VirginS [PLURAL]," who ain't US, and whom Jesus is NOT "MARRYING," see... ]).



Very DISTINCT CONTEXTS.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

#6 and the dead in Christ will be the FIRST to rise.
#7 After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18

Consider a few things (or at least, may the readers consider...):

--[under point #6] there's no definite article "the" with the word "first" (thus changing to an ADJECTIVE that which is actually an ADVERB) in the text: "shall rise [verb] first [adverb]"--This actually means that "the dead in Christ" will be bodily resurrected BEFORE the next thing in the text [under your point #7] takes place... but what you (DT) are suggesting (as I've noted from your other posts) is that this part of the text is saying (incorrectly, but as you surmise) that "the dead in Christ will be the FIRST... to meet the Lord IN THE AIR" and only afterward will the "we which are alive" join them where they [supposedly] will already have been "caught up," BEFORE the others will be caught up, to--IN THE AIR; but this is NOT what the text is stating;

--[under point #7] "caught up [verb-action] TOGETHER [adverb... this MUST be JOINED TO THE VERB; so "caught up TOGETHER [at the same time that they are also caught up]"] with [G4862] them... TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR (we [the "ONE BODY"] arrive at that location AT THE SAME TIME); "so [in this manner (i.e. BY MEANS of the "caught up / SNATCH" action, at ONE SINGULAR POINT IN TIME)] shall WE [all together, at the same time] ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord";

...it is not as DT suggests, that "the dead in Christ" will arrive at the "IN THE AIR" location AHEAD of when the "we which are alive" component of the "ONE BODY" will arrive there... but that we'll be "caught up / SNATCHED / raptured TOGETHER [at the SAME TIME]" in ONE "SNATCH-action" (and pertaining SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"]--Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence].)

Put your complete trust in the Word - reject man made theories.

I believe the text over what it is you are suggesting of it.

Your viewpoint (as you've expressed it more clearly in past posts) pretty much butchers the grammar. I cannot be "convinced" of your viewpoint, based on such...

 

[DavidTree]

Consider a few things (or at least, may the readers consider...):

--[under point #6] there's no definite article "the" with the word "first" (thus changing to an ADJECTIVE that which is actually an ADVERB) in the text: "shall rise [verb] first [adverb]"--This actually means that "the dead in Christ" will be bodily resurrected BEFORE the next thing in the text [under your point #7] takes place... but what you (DT) are suggesting (as I've noted from your other posts) is that this part of the text is saying (incorrectly, but as you surmise) that "the dead in Christ will be the FIRST... to meet the Lord IN THE AIR" and only afterward will the "we which are alive" join them where they [supposedly] will already have been "caught up," BEFORE the others will be caught up, to--IN THE AIR; but this is NOT what the text is stating;

--[under point #7] "caught up [verb-action] TOGETHER [adverb... this MUST be JOINED TO THE VERB; so "caught up TOGETHER [at the same time that they are also caught up]"] with [G4862] them... TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR (we [the "ONE BODY"] arrive at that location AT THE SAME TIME); "so [in this manner (i.e. BY MEANS of the "caught up / SNATCH" action, at ONE SINGULAR POINT IN TIME)] shall WE [all together, at the same time] ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord";

...it is not as DT suggests, that "the dead in Christ" will arrive at the "IN THE AIR" location AHEAD of when the "we which are alive" component of the "ONE BODY" will arrive there... but that we'll be "caught up / SNATCHED / raptured TOGETHER [at the SAME TIME]" in ONE "SNATCH-action" (and pertaining SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"]--Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence].)





I believe the text over what it is you are suggesting of it.

No you don't lol = you like to post blah blah blah from your Religion Blender = Just as you did now.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No you don't lol = you like to post blah blah blah from your Religion Blender = Just as you did now.

DT: Put your complete trust in the Word - reject man made theories.

[As I said at the end of my last post...]

I believe the text over what it is you are suggesting of it.

Your viewpoint (as you've expressed it more clearly in past posts) pretty much butchers the grammar.

I cannot be "convinced" of your viewpoint, based on such...

 

[DavidTree]

[As I said at the end of my last post...]

I believe the text over what it is you are suggesting of it.

Your viewpoint (as you've expressed it more clearly in past posts) pretty much butchers the grammar.

I cannot be "convinced" of your viewpoint, based on such...

i do not have a viewpoint of my own, if i did you might have something to say.

i SEE Scripture plain as Day - without 'adding or taking away' unlike yourself.

You are only convinced in believing and promoting a lie by 'adding to and taking away' from God's words.

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30: 5-6

Scripture cannot lie

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

DavidTree said:
#6 and the dead in Christ will be the FIRST to rise.

The text does not have the definite article ('the') before or connected with the word "first" (YOU *ADDED* that).

So here you have CHANGED the text, so as to make it comport with YOUR VIEW that this text is saying they'll be "THE FIRST to be caught up... to meet Him IN THE AIR".

However, the text does not convey what you suggest.




--not "THE FIRST [adjective] to"

[but instead]

--"shall rise [verb] FIRST [adverb]"

(referring to their being "resurrected" from the dead / from their graves [prior to the next thing]--NOT their "being CAUGHT UP" [prior to when the rest will be "caught up" separately. NO! The grammar itself does not allow this meaning!])

 

[DavidTree]

Consider a few things (or at least, may the readers consider...):

--[under point #6] there's no definite article "the" with the word "first" (thus changing to an ADJECTIVE that which is actually an ADVERB) in the text: "shall rise [verb] first [adverb]"--This actually means that "the dead in Christ" will be bodily resurrected BEFORE the next thing in the text [under your point #7] takes place... but what you (DT) are suggesting (as I've noted from your other posts) is that this part of the text is saying (incorrectly, but as you surmise) that "the dead in Christ will be the FIRST... to meet the Lord IN THE AIR" and only afterward will the "we which are alive" join them where they [supposedly] will already have been "caught up," BEFORE the others will be caught up, to--IN THE AIR; but this is NOT what the text is stating;

--[under point #7] "caught up [verb-action] TOGETHER [adverb... this MUST be JOINED TO THE VERB; so "caught up TOGETHER [at the same time that they are also caught up]"] with [G4862] them... TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR (we [the "ONE BODY"] arrive at that location AT THE SAME TIME); "so [in this manner (i.e. BY MEANS of the "caught up / SNATCH" action, at ONE SINGULAR POINT IN TIME)] shall WE [all together, at the same time] ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord";

...it is not as DT suggests, that "the dead in Christ" will arrive at the "IN THE AIR" location AHEAD of when the "we which are alive" component of the "ONE BODY" will arrive there... but that we'll be "caught up / SNATCHED / raptured TOGETHER [at the SAME TIME]" in ONE "SNATCH-action" (and pertaining SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"]--Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence].)





I believe the text over what it is you are suggesting of it.

Your viewpoint (as you've expressed it more clearly in past posts) pretty much butchers the grammar. I cannot be "convinced" of your viewpoint, based on such...

The Dead is Christ Rise FIRST - AFTER that those who remain - YES we who are ALIVE are 'caught up together' with THEM in the Clouds because WE are One Body.

This is HIS Children Knowledge 101