How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[TheDivineWatermark]

Exactly!
That is why the 'Wrath of God' is singled-out in the description of the 'Vials'.
The 'Trumpet' events - as "horrible" as they are - are not even part of the 'Wrath of God'.
The 'Vials' are the 'Wrath of God'.
The 'Trumpet' events are not.
The 'Seal' descriptions are not.
The 'Tribulation' details are not.

In 'event' terms, there is no overlap between '[Great] Tribulation' and the 'Wrath of God'. In fact, there is a span of time that is [at least] 3.5 years "sandwiched" between them.

Order of Events:

[Great] Tribulation (ends)
Two Witnesses / Trumpet Events
(Jesus)
Resurrection and Rapture
Wrath of God

Where Revelation 22:18 says,

"I testify to everyone hearing the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone should add to these things, God will add [/impose] unto him the plagues having been written in this book."

...do you believe this ^ is coming from the perspective of what one might call "God's wrath"?? (meaning, He would do this [the bold ^ ] because of His "wrath"... or no? How do you see this?)




____________

P.S. as you know, I disagree with you that ONLY the "Vials" are His "wrath"... They are said to be "the seven LAST plagues; For IN THEM the wrath of God IS COMPLETED" (not "is STARTED *and* completed")

 

[JohnRH]

No one taught a pre-trib rapture until John Darby, and Anglican preacher, in the mid 1800s.

A guy named Paul taught the pretrib rapture hundreds of years before Darby.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:17 (KJV)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

A guy named Paul taught the pretrib rapture hundreds of years before Darby.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:17 (KJV)

I guarantee that poster will ask you, where is the TIMING found in that verse?

Other posters have suggested that this verse ^ is saying "alive AND REMAIN" means "remain till the end of the Trib years".

Of course, it doesn't mean that.

But how would you address those ideas (as they will inevitably come up)?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, exactly.
The warrior king coming to conquer is pretty much the central message of all prophecy.
We will join him in royal procession and serve him in his kingdom.

I disagree

You conquer when you take something that is not yours and make it yours.

Jesus is not doing this

He is coming to PUNISH and to take back what is rightfully his

 

[TheLearner]

So we are going to escort Jesus back to earth?

Jesus is not coming to conquer my friend.

Yes, that is the cultural setting for example,

Mark 11:7-11
Holman Christian Standard Bible
7 Then they brought the donkey to Jesus and threw their robes on it, and He sat on it.

8 Many people spread their robes on the road, and others spread leafy branches cut from the fields.[a] 9 Then those who went ahead and those who followed kept shouting:

Hosanna!
He who comes in the name
of the Lord is the blessed One!
10 The coming kingdom
of our father David is blessed!
Hosanna in the highest heaven!

11 And He went into Jerusalem and into the temple complex. After looking around at everything, since it was already late, He went out to Bethany with the Twelve.

 

[TheLearner]

https://repository.divinity.edu.au/2031/1/Dean's_Thesis_final_print.pdf

 

[TheLearner]

https://repository.divinity.edu.au/2031/1/Dean's_Thesis_final_print.pdf

It turns out that escorting people into and out of a town, city was common back then. The language used of Jesus Second Coming in the text lines up with the language of this custom.

 

[TheLearner]

Nope

That is what I found studying the topic.

If your going to converse with me. Please stop thinking you know where I got my info. Its rude.

Unless you are infallible, it is only your opinion just like my opinion is my opinion. Are you really going to claim to an infallible pope?

 

[TheLearner]

This does not refute my point my friend.

All three chapters together wipes out your man man tradition friend. In context they all describe the Second Coming.

CHAPTER 16
16:1 Watch concerning your life; let not your lamps be quenched or your loins be loosed, but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour at which our Lord cometh.

16:2 But be ye gathered together frequently, seeking what is suitable for your souls; for the whole time of your faith shall profit you not, unless ye be found perfect in the last time.

16:3 For in the last days false prophets and seducers shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate;

16:4 and because iniquity aboundeth they shall hate each other, and persecute each other, and deliver each other up; and then shall the Deceiver of the world appear as the Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands; and he shall do unlawful things, such as have never happened since the beginning of the world.

16:5 Then shall the creation of man come to the fiery trial of proof, and many shall be offended and shall perish; but they who remain in their faith shall be saved by the rock of offence itself.

16:6 And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first the sign of the appearance in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead

16:7 -- not of all, but as it has been said, The Lord shall come and all his saints with him;

16:8 then shall the world behold the Lord coming on the clouds of heaven.

{The End of the Didache}

 

[TheLearner]

First off, the word in the text is NOT "fall"... the Greeks had a word for "to fall"--"pipto"--and the word in verse 3 is NOT THAT word.



But imagine for a minute (just for argument's sake) that it *were* the word "fall" (it's not!)

Is this guy trying to tell us he's never heard the term "fall out" used in the following sense (if not, he really DOESN'T "get out" enough! lol)


[from a dictionary]

"Fall Out Meaning
Fall Out is an idiom. The meaning of this idiom is (figuratively) To leave one's current location to report for duty at a new location."

[end quoting https://www.urdupoint.com/dictionary/idioms/2079/fall-out.html ; bold/underline mine]


____________


... but again... the word is NOT "fall" or "fall away"...the Greeks had a word for "fall/to fall"-- "pipto"--and this is NOT the word used in v.3.



Rather, the word is "apostasia" ("later form for apostasis"-per Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon [1871]--"apo stasis" - "a standing away from [from a previous standing]")


[from BibleHub]

"HELPS Word-studies
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing.""

[end quoting; bold and underline emphasis mine]



... and in the case of our text here (v.3) it is used with the definite article ("the"--"THE departure"--the one Paul had JUST referred to in the text previously)

to fall and fall have the same meaning one is falling down somehow, be it spiritually or hugging the ground.

 

[TheLearner]

read to here wife will kick me off soon

 

[Runningman]

Exactly!

That is why the 'Wrath of God' is singled-out in the description of the 'Vials'.

The 'Trumpet' events - as "horrible" as they are - are not even part of the 'Wrath of God'.

The 'Vials' are the 'Wrath of God'.

The 'Trumpet' events are not.

The 'Seal' descriptions are not.

The 'Tribulation' details are not.

In 'event' terms, there is no overlap between '[Great] Tribulation' and the 'Wrath of God'. In fact, there is a span of time that is [at least] 3.5 years "sandwiched" between them.

Order of Events:

[Great] Tribulation (ends)
Two Witnesses / Trumpet Events
(Jesus)
Resurrection and Rapture
Wrath of God

Well said. This is very plain and clear in the scriptures. Where it gets twisted 🥨 is when pre-tribbers don't like when the plain text of the scriptures contradicts their doctrine.

 

[TheLearner]

Jesus' Royal Entry into Jerusalem
BRENT KINMAN
https://www.jstor.org/stable/26423898


other examples of escorting https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/words/Escort
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=escort&version=HCSB
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/words/Escort
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_entry

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

to fall and fall have the same meaning one is falling down somehow, be it spiritually or hugging the ground.

Yeah, but twice in my post I stated that the word in verse 3 (the word under discussion) is NOT "fall / to fall / pipto".




If you want to talk about the word in Rev9:1 (fall / pipto) we can do that.

-- https://biblehub.com/greek/4098.htm
-- https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/9-1.htm



.... but the word in 2Th2:3 is NOT *that* word.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Heb9:8-9a - "By this the Holy Spirit was signifying that the way into the holy places has not yet been made manifest, the first tabernacle [the one in the wilderness, per the furnishings of v.4] still [/yet] having A STANDING [stasis / stasin], which is A PARABLE for the PRESENT TIME..."




["apo stasis" = an "away-from standing"/"a standing away-from [from a previous standing]" or "departure" (in our text, v.3: "THE departure")]

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

I disagree

You conquer when you take something that is not yours and make it yours.

Jesus is not doing this

He is coming to PUNISH and to take back what is rightfully his

I concur the terrritory is rightfully his but I think you are being excessively meticulous in your definition.
In any event, it doesn't change the prophetic picture of the Lord of Armies striking down the nations.

"with justice he judges and makes war"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, that is the cultural setting for example,

Mark 11:7-11
Holman Christian Standard Bible
7 Then they brought the donkey to Jesus and threw their robes on it, and He sat on it.

8 Many people spread their robes on the road, and others spread leafy branches cut from the fields.[a] 9 Then those who went ahead and those who followed kept shouting:

Hosanna!
He who comes in the name
of the Lord is the blessed One!
10 The coming kingdom
of our father David is blessed!
Hosanna in the highest heaven!

11 And He went into Jerusalem and into the temple complex. After looking around at everything, since it was already late, He went out to Bethany with the Twelve.

Did Jesus conquer jerusalem?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Unless you are infallible, it is only your opinion just like my opinion is my opinion. Are you really going to claim to an infallible pope?

the difference is I am not telling you what you believe or where you got your belief.
Please learn to read better and understand what I said

 

[eternally-gratefull]

All three chapters together wipes out your man man tradition friend. In context they all describe the Second Coming.

See there you go again. Your being a hypocrite now You think I am going to respond to nonsense like this?

You need an attitude adjusment my friend. You iuse the name learner. But in almost every post I see you make. You act more like an imposer not a learner.

 

[Diakonos]

the devils will be glad that we won

Is this from Scripture, or did you make this up?

all things work 4 us. Not against us

If you are basing this off of Romans 8:28, I understand where you are coming from. And I agree.
All forms of evil oppose us, but the final outcome of their work will assist us in accomplishing God's perfect plan for us. The Cross is a perfect example...those who crucified Jesus were opposed to Him, but God used their works of opposition to accomplish His will through the death of His Son.