Why do Christians believe in a place of torment called Hell?
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Lets look at what he really said,
"
Chapter 16. The fate of false teachers
Do not err, my brethren. James 1:16 Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 If, then, those who do this as respects the flesh have suffered death, how much more shall this be the case with any one who corrupts by wicked doctrine the faith of God, for which Jesus Christ was crucified! Such an one becoming defiled [in this way], shall go away into everlasting fire, and so shall every one that hearkens unto him."
Your source had,
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death . how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2)"
"
Chapter 7. Do nothing without the bishop and presbyters
As therefore the Lord did nothing without the Father, being united to Him, neither by Himself nor by the apostles, so neither do anything without the bishop and presbyters. Neither endeavour that anything appear reasonable and proper to yourselves apart; but being come together into the same place, let there be one prayer, one supplication, one mind, one hope, in love and in joy undefiled. There is one Jesus Christ, than whom nothing is more excellent. Therefore run together as into one temple of God, as to one altar, as to one Jesus Christ, who came forth from one Father, and is with and has gone to one."
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0105.htm
"
Chapter 5. Death is the fate of all such
Seeing, then, all things have an end, these two things are simultaneously set before us — death and life; and every one shall go unto his own place. For as there are two kinds of coins, the one of God, the other of the world, and each of these has its special character stamped upon it, [so is it also here.] The unbelieving are of this world; but the believing have, in love, the character of God the Father by Jesus Christ, by whom, if we are not in readiness to die into His passion, His life is not in us."
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0105.htm
The last two quotes are from
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0105.htm
Fire that does not end, unbelievers have their place to go to live. It is more inline with what the whole church teaches --- eternal punishment.
Have a great day friend.
"
Chapter 16. The fate of false teachers
Do not err, my brethren. James 1:16 Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 If, then, those who do this as respects the flesh have suffered death, how much more shall this be the case with any one who corrupts by wicked doctrine the faith of God, for which Jesus Christ was crucified! Such an one becoming defiled [in this way], shall go away into everlasting fire, and so shall every one that hearkens unto him."
Your source had,
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death . how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2)"
"
Chapter 7. Do nothing without the bishop and presbyters
As therefore the Lord did nothing without the Father, being united to Him, neither by Himself nor by the apostles, so neither do anything without the bishop and presbyters. Neither endeavour that anything appear reasonable and proper to yourselves apart; but being come together into the same place, let there be one prayer, one supplication, one mind, one hope, in love and in joy undefiled. There is one Jesus Christ, than whom nothing is more excellent. Therefore run together as into one temple of God, as to one altar, as to one Jesus Christ, who came forth from one Father, and is with and has gone to one."
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0105.htm
"
Chapter 5. Death is the fate of all such
Seeing, then, all things have an end, these two things are simultaneously set before us — death and life; and every one shall go unto his own place. For as there are two kinds of coins, the one of God, the other of the world, and each of these has its special character stamped upon it, [so is it also here.] The unbelieving are of this world; but the believing have, in love, the character of God the Father by Jesus Christ, by whom, if we are not in readiness to die into His passion, His life is not in us."
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0105.htm
The last two quotes are from
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0105.htm
Fire that does not end, unbelievers have their place to go to live. It is more inline with what the whole church teaches --- eternal punishment.
Have a great day friend.
HELL
From the Writings of the Early Christians we Come to understand muchas they lived far closer to the times of Christ and his apostles then we can ever hope, with this in mind we look to them because the truth is Eternal (constant) it always remains the Same, thus what they have proclaimed letus then hold firm to.
Ignatius of Antioch
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2 [A.D. 110]).
Second Clement
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).
Second Clement
"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have enduredtortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, 'There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!'" (ibid., 17:7).
Justin Martyr
"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if allmen recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, sothat he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).
Justin Martyr
"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid.,21).
Justin Martyr
"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host,when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he willclothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility,he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid.,52).
The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldlytortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes theirescape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3[A.D. 155]).
Mathetes
"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letterto Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).
Athenagoras
"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one .. . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Pleafor the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).
Theophilus of Antioch
"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God.. [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things.. For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus1:14 [A.D. 181]).
Irenaeus of Lyons
"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angelswho transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1[A.D. 189]).
"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of Godand despise his coming ... t is not merely temporal, but eternal. Towhomsoever the Lord shall say, 'Depart from me, accursed ones, into theeverlasting fire,' they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).
Tertullian
"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).
Tertullian
"Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshippers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12-13).
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/general/Hell.htm
From the Writings of the Early Christians we Come to understand muchas they lived far closer to the times of Christ and his apostles then we can ever hope, with this in mind we look to them because the truth is Eternal (constant) it always remains the Same, thus what they have proclaimed letus then hold firm to.
Ignatius of Antioch
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2 [A.D. 110]).
Second Clement
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).
Second Clement
"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have enduredtortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, 'There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!'" (ibid., 17:7).
Justin Martyr
"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if allmen recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, sothat he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).
Justin Martyr
"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid.,21).
Justin Martyr
"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host,when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he willclothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility,he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid.,52).
The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldlytortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes theirescape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3[A.D. 155]).
Mathetes
"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letterto Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).
Athenagoras
"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one .. . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Pleafor the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).
Theophilus of Antioch
"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God.. [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things.. For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus1:14 [A.D. 181]).
Irenaeus of Lyons
"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angelswho transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1[A.D. 189]).
Irenaeus of Lyons
"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of Godand despise his coming ... t is not merely temporal, but eternal. Towhomsoever the Lord shall say, 'Depart from me, accursed ones, into theeverlasting fire,' they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).
Tertullian
"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).
Tertullian
"Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshippers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12-13).
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/general/Hell.htm
Isaiah 34
Easy-to-Read Version
God Will Punish His Enemies
34 All you nations, come near and listen! Listen, all you people. The earth and everyone on it should listen to these things. Everything in this world should hear this. 2 The Lord is angry with all the nations and their armies. He will destroy them all and put them to death. 3 Their bodies will be thrown outside. The stink will rise from the bodies, and the blood will flow down the mountains. 4 The skies will be rolled shut like a scroll,[a] and the stars will die and fall like leaves from a vine or a fig tree. All the stars in the sky will rot away. 5 The Lord says, “This will happen when my sword in the sky is covered with blood.”
Look, the Lord’s sword will cut through Edom. He judged them guilty, and they must die.[c] 6 The Lord decided there should be a time for killing in Bozrah and in Edom. So the sword of the Lord is covered with blood and fat. The blood is from the “goats.” The fat is from the kidneys of the “rams.”[d] 7 So the rams, the cattle, and the strong bulls will be killed. The land will be filled with their blood. The dirt will be covered with their fat.
8 This will happen because the Lord has chosen a time for punishment. He has chosen a year when people must pay for the wrong they did to Zion. 9 Edom’s rivers will be like hot tar. Edom’s ground will be like burning sulfur. 10 The fires will burn day and night—no one will stop the fire. The smoke will rise from Edom forever. The land will be destroyed forever and ever. No one will ever travel through that land again. 11 Birds and small animals will own that land. It will be a home for owls and ravens. God will leave that land in ruins. People will call it “the empty desert.”[e] 12 The free men[f] and leaders will all be gone, and there will be nothing left for them to rule.
13 Thorns and wild bushes will grow in all the beautiful homes there. Wild dogs and owls will live in them. Wild animals will make their homes there. Big birds will live in the grasses that grow there. 14 Wild cats will live there with hyenas.[g] Wild goats[h] will call to their friends. Night animals will spend some time there and find a place to rest. 15 Snakes will make their homes there and lay their eggs. The eggs will open, and small snakes will crawl from the dark places. Birds that eat dead things will gather there like women visiting their friends.
16 Look in the Lord’s scroll and read what it says: Not one of these will be missing. Not one will be without its mate. God said he would make this happen, so his Spirit will bring them together. 17 God decided what he should do with them, and then he chose a place for them. He drew a line and showed them their land. So the animals will own that land forever. They will live there year after year.
Interesting argument taking a figure of speech from OT Hebrew and applying it to NT Greek.
LXX in English translation:
8For it is the day of judgement of the Lord, and the year of the recompence of Sion in judgement.
9And her valleys shall be turned into pitch, and her land into sulphur; and her land shall be as pitch burning night and day;
10and it shall never be quenched, and her smoke shall go up: it shall be made desolate throughout her generations,
11and for a long time birds and hedgehogs, and ibises and ravens shall dwell in it: and the measuring line of desolation shall be cast over it, and satyrs shall dwell in it.
The Hebrew is not translated into the Greek with the same words used in Revelations. Or so it appears.
I am curious lets check.
8ἡμέρα γὰρ κρίσεως Κυρίου, καὶ ἐνιαυτὸς ἀνταποδόσεως κρίσεως Σειών.
9καὶ στραφήσονται αὐτῆς αἱ φάραγγες εἰς πίσσαν, καὶ ἡ γῆ αὐτῆς εἰς θεῖον· καὶ ἔσται ἡ γῆ αὐτῆς ὡς πίσσα καιομένη
10νυκτὸς καὶ ἡμέρας, καὶ οὐ σβεσθήσεται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα χρόνον, καὶ ἀναβήσεται ὁ καπνὸς αὐτῆς ἄνω, εἰς γενεὰς αὐτῆς ἐρημωθήσεται, καὶ εἰς χρόνον πολύν.
11ὄρνεα καὶ ἐχῖνοι καὶ εἴβεις καὶ κόρακες κατοικήσουσιν ἐν αὐτῇ· καὶ ἐπιβληθήσεται ἐπ᾽ αὐτὴν σπαρτίον γεωμετρίας ἐρήμου, καὶ ὀνοκένταυροι οἰκήσουσιν ἐν αὐτῇ.
https://biblehub.com/sepd/isaiah/34.htm
αἰώνων from Rev text. Almost there at least. I do not see the grammar in both texts as being the same. Interesting at least.
2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
and
Conj
928 [e]
basanisthēsontai
βασανισθήσονται
they will be tormented
V-FIP-3P
2250 [e]
hēmeras
ἡμέρας
day
N-GFS
2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
and
Conj
3571 [e]
nyktos
νυκτὸς
night
N-GFS
1519 [e]
eis
εἰς
to
Prep
3588 [e]
tous
τοὺς
the
Art-AMP
165 [e]
aiōnas
αἰῶνας
ages
N-AMP
3588 [e]
tōn
τῶν
of the
Art-GMP
165 [e]
aiōnōn
αἰώνων .
ages
N-GMP
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/20-10.htm
Easy-to-Read Version
God Will Punish His Enemies
34 All you nations, come near and listen! Listen, all you people. The earth and everyone on it should listen to these things. Everything in this world should hear this. 2 The Lord is angry with all the nations and their armies. He will destroy them all and put them to death. 3 Their bodies will be thrown outside. The stink will rise from the bodies, and the blood will flow down the mountains. 4 The skies will be rolled shut like a scroll,[a] and the stars will die and fall like leaves from a vine or a fig tree. All the stars in the sky will rot away. 5 The Lord says, “This will happen when my sword in the sky is covered with blood.”
Look, the Lord’s sword will cut through Edom. He judged them guilty, and they must die.[c] 6 The Lord decided there should be a time for killing in Bozrah and in Edom. So the sword of the Lord is covered with blood and fat. The blood is from the “goats.” The fat is from the kidneys of the “rams.”[d] 7 So the rams, the cattle, and the strong bulls will be killed. The land will be filled with their blood. The dirt will be covered with their fat.
8 This will happen because the Lord has chosen a time for punishment. He has chosen a year when people must pay for the wrong they did to Zion. 9 Edom’s rivers will be like hot tar. Edom’s ground will be like burning sulfur. 10 The fires will burn day and night—no one will stop the fire. The smoke will rise from Edom forever. The land will be destroyed forever and ever. No one will ever travel through that land again. 11 Birds and small animals will own that land. It will be a home for owls and ravens. God will leave that land in ruins. People will call it “the empty desert.”[e] 12 The free men[f] and leaders will all be gone, and there will be nothing left for them to rule.
13 Thorns and wild bushes will grow in all the beautiful homes there. Wild dogs and owls will live in them. Wild animals will make their homes there. Big birds will live in the grasses that grow there. 14 Wild cats will live there with hyenas.[g] Wild goats[h] will call to their friends. Night animals will spend some time there and find a place to rest. 15 Snakes will make their homes there and lay their eggs. The eggs will open, and small snakes will crawl from the dark places. Birds that eat dead things will gather there like women visiting their friends.
16 Look in the Lord’s scroll and read what it says: Not one of these will be missing. Not one will be without its mate. God said he would make this happen, so his Spirit will bring them together. 17 God decided what he should do with them, and then he chose a place for them. He drew a line and showed them their land. So the animals will own that land forever. They will live there year after year.
Interesting argument taking a figure of speech from OT Hebrew and applying it to NT Greek.
LXX in English translation:
8For it is the day of judgement of the Lord, and the year of the recompence of Sion in judgement.
9And her valleys shall be turned into pitch, and her land into sulphur; and her land shall be as pitch burning night and day;
10and it shall never be quenched, and her smoke shall go up: it shall be made desolate throughout her generations,
11and for a long time birds and hedgehogs, and ibises and ravens shall dwell in it: and the measuring line of desolation shall be cast over it, and satyrs shall dwell in it.
The Hebrew is not translated into the Greek with the same words used in Revelations. Or so it appears.
I am curious lets check.
8ἡμέρα γὰρ κρίσεως Κυρίου, καὶ ἐνιαυτὸς ἀνταποδόσεως κρίσεως Σειών.
9καὶ στραφήσονται αὐτῆς αἱ φάραγγες εἰς πίσσαν, καὶ ἡ γῆ αὐτῆς εἰς θεῖον· καὶ ἔσται ἡ γῆ αὐτῆς ὡς πίσσα καιομένη
10νυκτὸς καὶ ἡμέρας, καὶ οὐ σβεσθήσεται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα χρόνον, καὶ ἀναβήσεται ὁ καπνὸς αὐτῆς ἄνω, εἰς γενεὰς αὐτῆς ἐρημωθήσεται, καὶ εἰς χρόνον πολύν.
11ὄρνεα καὶ ἐχῖνοι καὶ εἴβεις καὶ κόρακες κατοικήσουσιν ἐν αὐτῇ· καὶ ἐπιβληθήσεται ἐπ᾽ αὐτὴν σπαρτίον γεωμετρίας ἐρήμου, καὶ ὀνοκένταυροι οἰκήσουσιν ἐν αὐτῇ.
https://biblehub.com/sepd/isaiah/34.htm
αἰώνων from Rev text. Almost there at least. I do not see the grammar in both texts as being the same. Interesting at least.
2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
and
Conj
928 [e]
basanisthēsontai
βασανισθήσονται
they will be tormented
V-FIP-3P
2250 [e]
hēmeras
ἡμέρας
day
N-GFS
2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
and
Conj
3571 [e]
nyktos
νυκτὸς
night
N-GFS
1519 [e]
eis
εἰς
to
Prep
3588 [e]
tous
τοὺς
the
Art-AMP
165 [e]
aiōnas
αἰῶνας
ages
N-AMP
3588 [e]
tōn
τῶν
of the
Art-GMP
165 [e]
aiōnōn
αἰώνων .
ages
N-GMP
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/20-10.htm
Revelation 1:18
the Living One. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of Death and of Hades.
Surely, I do not think you think that God is not forever and ever, correct. Very similar simple Greek grammar by John in both texts Rev 1:18 and 20:10.
the Living One. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of Death and of Hades.
Surely, I do not think you think that God is not forever and ever, correct. Very similar simple Greek grammar by John in both texts Rev 1:18 and 20:10.
You are right on Lazarus and the rich man. Then
Why would God torture, torment someone in the grave(they would have to be awake to be tormented) and not in the Second Death?
Luke 16:23
New International Version
23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
Why would God torture, torment someone in the grave(they would have to be awake to be tormented) and not in the Second Death?
Luke 16:23
New International Version
23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
Thank you. I sincerely appreciate that compliment. I believe you also have the same attitude of sincerity toward the Word of God. From what I've seen you post, I agree with an estimated 99% of it.
I really just want to tell you my train of thoughts here and why I believe what I do.
I'm in the camp that the 2nd death means the cessation of all life-sustaining functions including consciousness and sensory perception. If the Bible means to say that death isn't death then then I don't understand that.
I believe Jesus did mean exactly what He said. The verses about damnation, punishment, and everlasting fire actually neglect to say damnation is an eternal conscious torment. I've looked at all of them, as far as I know, and I don't see anything like that. I've also digged a little bit into the Greek definitions to try to grasp a firmer idea.
Plus there are numerous verses where Jesus says that those who aren't saved perish or are destroyed. That sounds like annihilation. If it isn't annihilation then that means no one perishes or gets destroyed. That creates a consistency problem in my opinion.
If these passages are literal then the only thing that lasts forever is the smoke. It says "no rest day or night" and that sounds difficult to experience, but then it leaves out the word eternal. Had the words eternally or forevermore been added with "day or night" then that would be an easy proof of eternal torment.
I really just want to tell you my train of thoughts here and why I believe what I do.
I'm in the camp that the 2nd death means the cessation of all life-sustaining functions including consciousness and sensory perception. If the Bible means to say that death isn't death then then I don't understand that.
I believe Jesus did mean exactly what He said. The verses about damnation, punishment, and everlasting fire actually neglect to say damnation is an eternal conscious torment. I've looked at all of them, as far as I know, and I don't see anything like that. I've also digged a little bit into the Greek definitions to try to grasp a firmer idea.
Plus there are numerous verses where Jesus says that those who aren't saved perish or are destroyed. That sounds like annihilation. If it isn't annihilation then that means no one perishes or gets destroyed. That creates a consistency problem in my opinion.
If these passages are literal then the only thing that lasts forever is the smoke. It says "no rest day or night" and that sounds difficult to experience, but then it leaves out the word eternal. Had the words eternally or forevermore been added with "day or night" then that would be an easy proof of eternal torment.
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James 2:26
New King James Version
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Death is biblically defined as separation.
The Resurrected body I Cor 15 can not be destroyed by fire.
So, a soul or spirit trapped in a body that can not be destroyed could experience the pain of being or living without God. Fully knowing from the brief exposure to God at the Judgement. Would for them be painful.
New King James Version
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Death is biblically defined as separation.
The Resurrected body I Cor 15 can not be destroyed by fire.
So, a soul or spirit trapped in a body that can not be destroyed could experience the pain of being or living without God. Fully knowing from the brief exposure to God at the Judgement. Would for them be painful.
James 2:26 defines death as separation of body and spirit. Thus spiritual death would be separation from God. The Second death can be separation from God And, it can include eternal pain of not being in God's presence. Why would God want to have someone around that does not love them?
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Rolly picture yourself coming into the room and meet someone who totally loves you. Then you are dragged out of the room never to be with them again. How would you feel about that? would you desire to find that someone again?
I do not see any scripture that does not allow one to repent at the judgement. Hebrews 9:27 only says, there is death followed at some time with the Judgement. It does not say, there is no chance of repenting when you are at the judgement.
I do not see any scripture that does not allow one to repent at the judgement. Hebrews 9:27 only says, there is death followed at some time with the Judgement. It does not say, there is no chance of repenting when you are at the judgement.
I never said it did. Someone was pointing out that in Luke 16 passage, that the word torment was in fact used there. I understood you as saying the word torment was not used in the Luke 16 passage. Do you admit from luke 16 there will be torment in the grave? Maybe, when we post we need to distinguish between the two. I understood the other person as saying since there is in fact torment in the grave, then we should expect the unsaved to experience torment in Hell for lack of a better word. That's all.
And the first part of James 2:26 defines death as separation of body and spirit. Going from that I used the rule of arguing from lesser to greater. Jesus often used this type of argument. An example was referring to the judges in Psalms as gods to referring to himself as being God's Son. We know that sin separates us from God in our life otherwise there would be no need for Jesus to die for our sins. We would be able to simply move onto a period of Sanctification under God's Power to be fit for Heaven. Because we know the Gospel, we know that we were dead in our sins. Our spirit-soul did not cease to exist therefore we were separated from God.