Why do Christians believe in a place of torment called Hell?

[TheLearner]

God is always present. It is the unsaved that aren't present because they no longer exist.

The concept of presence does not have to do with God's Omnipresence it relates to limited creatures not knowing he is in fact there.

Thus after being rejected by God and not knowing he is there, they would think of him not being there.

You may be able to make a case based on the Holiness of God --- that God will not tolerate sin.

Since, I know Church History I would not find that convincing, but it would be interesting.

 

[TheLearner]

Doesn't contempt come from another person not the person feeling the contempt? Isn't it true that Hitler has a lot of contempt from Jews and the world yet he can't fell it since he is dead?






Yeah but you can also cease to exist a bit later.





You are wrong yet again. You do not have to exist for smoke of your burning to rise up. I'd say nice try but it wasn't.

All Jewish people I know are forgiving. We just want to educate people so, history is not repeated.

Genesis 50:17
‘Thus you shall say to Joseph: “I beg you, please forgive the trespass of your brothers and their sin; for they did evil to you.” ’ Now, please, forgive the trespass of the servants of the God of your father.” And Joseph wept when they spoke to him.

I was taught this lesson at an early age in Temple School. It was because of that Lesson I was able to forgive those who murdered my Dad.

 

[TheLearner]

In Revelation 14:9-11 "forever and ever" means "Until the end of the age". That age concludes with the advent of the new heaven and earth.

Revelation 1:18
Easy-to-Read Version
18 I am the one who lives. I was dead, but look, I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Same grammar and words in those phrases, limit one you limit the other.

Revelation 14:11
New King James Version
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

 

[TheLearner]

I guess the lie you heard is in the JW manual, or the Mormon manual, ???????? as you are not a mainline denominational Christian, if you are one at all.

Let me guess, you are water baptized and think this is being saved.
Right.

So Your teaching here is "fringe", and not related to anything that is "Protestant", "Mainline" "Denomination".

Give him the ??? of being Seventh Day Adventist. They are brothers in Christ.

 

[TheLearner]

read to here

 

[TheLearner]

If there has eternal torment .
God also said, just wait until my anger against you disappears.

Where do we find God being angry with sinners? I don't remember such texts, guest I am tired.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Friend I did not see, "there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.” in Isaiah 1, what did I miss there? From the context of Isaiah 1 it was not about the end times resurrection.

what about Isaiah 1 ? This is showing us why Israels covenant was destroyed why would it reference the resurrection ?

“Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers. And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city. Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah. Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭1:7-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

They didn’t they rejected crucified him when he came so the latter was fulfilled that isn’t related to the subject of the resurrection is why it doesn’t appear in Isaiah 1 that’s about y Israel’s covenant ended in destruction

It culminates here showing their choice thier covenant was fulfilled as the curse rather than blessing and isn’t going to be resurrected it’s showing us a remnant believed but then this happened

“Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him. But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours. So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them? He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid. And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭20:13-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The Old Testament doesn’t offer the keeper of the law , resurrection but hope in Christ they had like we do . He came being the resurrection himself and announcing it in full

the resurrection of just and unjust is in the prophets such as this but not Isaiah 1 that’s a different subject matter

“I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.”
‭‭Hosea‬ ‭13:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

in that prophecy you will find a lot of understanding but again it’s sort of a mystery until we read Peter and Paul and especially johns revelations

“O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;

but in me is thine help. I will be thy king: where is any other that may save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes?”
‭‭Hosea‬ ‭13:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God was coming to save the nation of Israel but they rejected him and his doctrine and crucified him as a blasphemer they chose the curse and the kingdom was sent to all who believe jew or gentile.

the resurrection is about the kingdom of God Jesus preached a lot in the prophets out it but it’s obscure unless we look from Jesus back into it then it’s really clear stuff

we can’t be saved for this world it’s not eternal













.

 

[Aaron56]

Revelation 1:18
Easy-to-Read Version
18 I am the one who lives. I was dead, but look, I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Same grammar and words in those phrases, limit one you limit the other.

Revelation 14:11
New King James Version
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

The phrase has multiple meanings like “love”, “world”, “child”, etc.

 

[ewq1938]

The devil wont be destroyed.

That's not what the bible tells us.

Heb_2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Even the devil will be destroyed.

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

He will be devoured by fire, turned to ashes and shall never exist anymore. That's Annihilation.

Do you not believe what these verses are saying? Do you know what "never shalt thou be any more" means in English?

 

[ewq1938]

So Jesus is wrong? Jesus said angels cannot die.

Why would you even say "So Jesus is wrong?". It's impossible for Jesus to be wrong.

Jesus was speaking of the angels of not fallen angels like spoke of and said he would be destroyed and never exist again so he isn't going to live any longer in the lake of fire than anyone else will.

 

[ewq1938]

And what about the spirit? Spirits cannot die therefore they stay in hellfire.

That's wrong. A spirit can die and will die along with soul and body in that fire which destroys everything that is thrown into it.

 

[ewq1938]

The last two quotes are from
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0105.htm

And neither have any support for eternal torment. In the quote I provided, he said the unsaved will die, not remain alive as the false doctrine of eternal torment teaches.

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation 1:18
the Living One. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of Death and of Hades.

Surely, I do not think you think that God is not forever and ever, correct. Very similar simple Greek grammar by John in both texts Rev 1:18 and 20:10.

The phrase can be literal and mean forever or it can be used figuratively where it is not literally forever. We know the devil will be destroyed and no longer exist:

Heb_2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Even the devil will be destroyed.

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

He will be devoured by fire, turned to ashes and shall never exist anymore. That's Annihilation.

 

[ewq1938]

You are right on Lazarus and the rich man. Then

Why would God torture, torment someone in the grave(they would have to be awake to be tormented) and not in the Second Death?

Hades is meant to be an unpleasant place but he wasn't screaming in pain and was able to carry a normal conversation. The lake of fire is a place that destroys those cast into it.

 

[ewq1938]

James 2:26
New King James Version
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Death is biblically defined as separation.

The Resurrected body I Cor 15 can not be destroyed by fire.

So, a soul or spirit trapped in a body that can not be destroyed could experience the pain of being or living without God. Fully knowing from the brief exposure to God at the Judgement. Would for them be painful.

The unsaved do not receive an immortal body which is why they can die a second time in second death. You teach opposite of second death, claiming the unsaved not only receive an immortal body but also have immortality. Jesus said unsaved will be dead and not live so I can only accept that as truth. Anything that teaches unsaved will remain alive is a non-biblical teaching.



John_3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life ; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

"shall not see life" means will not be alive.



Universalism -all people (saved and unsaved) will see life in the New Heaven and new Earth for all eternity--FALSE DOCTRINE

Eternal torment -all unsaved people will see life in torment (lake of fire) for all eternity--FALSE DOCTRINE

Annihilationism - all unsaved people will not see life as Christ said.--TRUE DOCTRINE


Only Annihilation matches what Christ taught in John_3:36.

 

[ewq1938]

Give him the ??? of being Seventh Day Adventist. They are brothers in Christ.

They are nice people but I don't agree with teachings of prophet or the reasoning behind not eating meant since Jesus ate Passover Lamb and fish.

I was raised Lutheranas a child , and consider myself non-denominational. All denominations have some type of error in their beliefs and eternal torment is one of them.

 

[Magenta]

Revelation 1:18
the Living One. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of Death and of Hades.

Surely, I do not think you think that God is not forever and ever, correct.
Very similar simple Greek grammar by John in both texts Rev 1:18 and 20:10.

Similar but not the same? God alone is immortal. Scripture plainly states that. Him existing forever has a completely different meaning than anything else that is said to last forever because by definition, nothing in creation is eternal since it ALL had a beginning, whereas God is eternally Self-existent. Even when we are said to live forever, it is forever after, not eternal. We had a beginning. Everything in creation had a beginning. Also, I gave a plethora of Scriptures PROVING that forever does not mean what many insist it does. People ignore them, though, being too attached to what they already believe

Revelation 1:18

 

[ewq1938]

Where do we find God being angry with sinners?

Psa 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.




Amos 5:14 Seek good, and not evil, that ye may live: and so the LORD, the God of hosts, shall be with you, as ye have spoken.
Amos 5:15 Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the LORD God of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph.



Proverbs 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.



Psalms 97:10 Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.



Malachi 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.


8130

08130 sane' {saw-nay'}

a primitive root; TWOT - 2272; v

AV - hate 136, enemies 3, enemy 2, foes 1, hateful 1, misc 3; 146

1) to hate, be hateful
1a) (Qal) to hate
1a1) of man
1a2) of God
1a3) hater, one hating, enemy (participle) (subst)
1b) (Niphal) to be hated
1c) (Piel) hater (participle)
1c1) of persons, nations, God, wisdom

This verb is in the Qal tense and is an example of when God hates someone or something.

H8130
????
s´a^ne^'
saw-nay'
A primitive root; to hate (personally): - enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful, -r), odious, X utterly.

It does not mean anything less than literal hatred.



Pro 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
Pro 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Pro 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Pro 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

1. He hates a person who is prideful!
2. He hates a person who is a liar!
3. He hates a person who is a murderer!
4. He hates a person who devises wicked imaginations!
5. He hates a person who committs mischief!
6. He hates a person who give a false witness!
7. He hates a person who sows discord among brethren!

Those are people he hates doing things he hates! He doesn't "love murderers less" than people who never murder! That is absurd.

God does not "love sin less" than good works. He hates them and he hates some people as well.


Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.


God not only hates sins but also sinful people (like Esau)

 

[Jocund]

What was the question? And, can you simplify the answer for those of us who are learning. thanks

I believe the question was "Is there an active promise to nonChristian Jews?"

The answer is basically "maybe". But within a very specific context of "maybe".

We see passages talk about grafted limbs of the tree and cut limbs. The root of the tree is a reference to the promise. There were branches that became apostates to the promise and were cut off (Jews and other Israelites that rejected Christ). There are wild branches (Gentile converts) that had a compatible nature and were grafted in. There were also branches that were neither grafted in nor cut off (the original Jewish Christians and their descendants). The covenant of the New Testament tells us that it is permissible to keep old traditions (and in doing so honour father and mother) but that identities that divide us should be let go ("Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all." - Col 3:11 KJV).

We see passages that discuss those that claim to be Jews but are actually pretenders ("synagogue of Satan"). We see passages that talk about how the promise to the seed of Israel was not for all descendants of Israel ("Not all of Israel are Israel") but that the promise was for Christ (and all those in Christ). We see passages that discuss that Christ is the only way to salvation ("None come to the Father except through me"). We see passages describing that all of those that were intended to be saved will be saved. We are presented with the concept that dead Hebrews and other Israelites find Christ after death ("Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." - John 8:56 KJV).

So is there an active promise to nonChristians about salvation? Maybe. Kind of. Basically, someone that calls themselves nonChristian isn't necessarily actually nonChristian. If someone lived with the love of Christ in their heart but had an incorrect understanding of words, terms, and labels, they still had Christ in their heart and reasonably would be one in Christ. A perfect understanding of the world isn't required for salvation.

If someone rejects the label of "Christian" because they didn't want to be associated with a corrupt priest that did evil things, that person might still really be Christian at heart. If someone grew up in a culture where they were told that Christianity was evil, they may reject the prospect of adopting the label of "Christian" even if they follow the Christian nature in their heart and mind. It's tempting to assume that we can know things about the world based on words and labels that are provided before us, but only God knows what's in our hearts. I don't claim to know who will be saved or whether a self-titled 'anything' goes to any particular place, but the concept that anyone can find salvation without Christ is a heresy that should be addressed accordingly.

 

[Runningman]

That's not what the bible tells us.

Heb_2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Even the devil will be destroyed.

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

He will be devoured by fire, turned to ashes and shall never exist anymore. That's Annihilation.

Do you not believe what these verses are saying? Do you know what "never shalt thou be any more" means in English?

Interesting. Wasn't even aware of that verse.