TONGUES TODAY

it is not tongues or no tongues or minimizing the supernatural or reframing the dynamics.
The NT was written by Holy Spirit baptized men to other Holy Spirit baptised men.
In acts the baptism in the Holy Spirit came first. Tongues followed.

Without the prerequisite there is no understanding.
Tongues becomes theory and logic ...WHICH REQUIRES the NECESSARY reframing as NEEDED.

I don't believe in degrees of spirituality. We are all equal in Christ. No one is more spiritual than another, or in any way superior.

For me, tongues is just a spiritual tool, in the same way as a jigsaw is a workshop tool. Owning a jigsaw doesn't make me superior as a wood worker than any other home wood worker. It just makes some jobs easier than using a handsaw.

The concept of spirituality is more a New Age concept than a Christian one. It comes out of monastic mysticism that developed in the Middle Ages, where separation of the world, poverty, and self-imposed suffering makes one closer to God. Some Charismatics have viewed the prophetic as having different levels of spirituality where one could graduate to being a "seer" where they could "see" things in the Spirit which ordinary believers couldn't. I don't believe in any of it, because it departs from walking by faith and enters into a mystical area of walking through "inner sight", which is basically New Age spirituality. In the past there was a craze among some Christians for the "deeper life" where they could rise to a deeper spiritual relationship with God that the ordinary rank and file believer didn't have. This type of thinking is also New Age mysticism and edges toward paganism where adherents go into a trance and move closer to their guiding spirit.

To deal with your comment, "Do all speak in tongues?", most cessationist use that statement to actually say, "No one speaks in tongues these days", but they are not prepared to be honest enough to come right out and say it.

My answer to "Do all speak in tongues?" is "I don't know about others, but I pray in tongues and love every minute of it!"

I am not angry at all.

I am not heart broken.

I am not playing a game.

My feelings are not hurt.

What I am disappointed in is that people like YOU use such inflammatory words when HIDING behind a computer screen.
Your brash, rude, unchristian behavior is on display and I guarantee you that YOU would not have the abilry neither the courage to face these things to anyone FACE TO FACE!

Anonymity certainly does give some people courage.

PLEASE place me on IGNORE just as I have done for YOU as of this minute.

Your answer seems to be an intentional deflection--you'd rather focus on what you do have than on the question of whether all "can have it,," or "do have it?" Otherwise, some really good stuff there. I agree on the "equality" thing, as well as on the history of Mysticism.

Nevertheless, I do believe in degrees of spirituality in the sense that although all are equally loved by God, some simply choose to not cooperate with God in all they are called to do. There will be some limited "shame" at Christ's return, suffered by genuine Christians.

We are not competing to be closer to God, or to be greater than one another. We are all equally desired by God, who created all to be needed in a single collective. The body equally needs the little toe as the ear! But the little toe does not compete with the ear to be an ear!

I won't equivocate, however, about the cessationist question. The gifts have not ceased, but we aren't all given the same or all gifts. When Paul asks, rhetorically, if all speak in tongues, he is suggesting, "of course we don't all speak in tongues, because the Spirit decides who has what gifts." Paul then argues that when we're given more than one gift, we should focus more on trying to edify others than just on ourselves.

Tongues is self-edifying, and is very important to those who have it. Unless you're well-edified yourself, how can you minister, spiritually, to others?

But tongues is only one way of self-edification. Prayer, praise, and Bible Study also accomplish the same. Not all are vested students of the Bible, or teachers. And so, God distributes gifts based on what He wants out of a person--not necessarily what we want.

Thanks!

I totally agree with everything you have said.

I mentioned the spirituality aspect because you were under the impression that I might have thought I was superior because I pray in tongues than others who don't have that facility. I wanted to put you right about that by explaining what I think the notion of degrees of spirituality is - New Age mysticism. My attitude to myself is the same as what Charles Spurgeon quoted:

"I'm just a poor sinner and nothing at all;
But Jesus Christ is my all in all."

It is interesting that Paul said that he spoke in tongues more than all the Corinthians put together, but he also referred to himself as "the chief of sinners". So, obviously, Paul did not see himself as superior to anyone through speaking in tongues.

Yes. We all have our various roles in the body of Christ, and the Holy Spirit gifts us accordingly as He wills. Just like in an orchestra. I played the viola in the Christchurch Orchestral Society, but I couldn't go and play and clarinet, or be in the first violins, because they were not my particular instruments. When I worked for the District Court as a Victim Advisor, I couldn't go and be a prosecuting attorney, or sit on the Bench as the Judge.

So, in the church, although I can play the piano as well as the guitar, I am not the pianist. There is a lady who has that ministry in the fellowship. I can't be the minister because I am not ordained to be one in that denomination, so when I am asked to take services, or use my guitar, they are backup roles when either the minister or pianist cannot be there. But I do have experience and skills in accounting, so I was treasurer for 23 years in my last Presbyterian church, and have been invited to accept the job in my present one. But I can't manage the Op Shop because I don't have those skills to do a good job of it, but there is a lady in the church who is expert at it, and raises a lot of funds for the church through it.

So these are my examples of how I see different roles and ministries in the Body of Christ. I have seen people who have done an excellent job at being a deacon, but when promoted to eldership makes a hash of it. Some who is a great Sunday School teacher, going to Seminary, coming back as minister and the people groan under his ineffective ministry. And yet, a church janitor can go to the same Seminary, and become a wonderful minister and pastor of a church.

So, in the area of spiritual gifts, we have people who may be great in the area of administrations and helps, try to be prophets and make a hash of it because they are not called to be prophets. Others who are great in their home churches, try to be apostles and go out to other countries and fail miserably. We have Healing ministries who try as they might can't get people healed, because they have promoted themselves to the ministry instead of the Holy Spirit calling them to it. And yet we have simple home group leaders praying for sick people and getting them healed, and a Sunday School child giving a powerful prophecy that encourages and uplifts the whole congregation, and a group of grandmas in the basement interceding in tongues while the preacher overhead is preaching a powerful Gospel and bringing scores of sinners to Christ.

Man, I enjoyed that! You have the gift of "describing things! " Yes, you've set me straight on the "superiority" thing. Anyway, I had started to think you weren't suggesting that anyway--just needed to be sure. Sounds like you're very well-rounded. I'm surprised that a Presbyterian Church is so charismatic, though??

While there are Charismatic Presbyterians (In New Zealand anyway), the one I went to in Auckland didn't want to be Charismatic, although there were some Charismatics in the membership. My church was half way between two suburbs, Papakura and Manurewa. The Papakura church was Charismatic, and the Manurewa church was Calvinist. The elders of my church wanted to be middle of the road between the two. There were members who clearly testified of their own healing by the power of God. And there were other members who said quite clearly that they didn't want the church to become a Pentecostal one. But we all had fellowship with each other as Christian believers, and lost sight of the mixture of Baptists, Anglicans, Charismatics, Catholics, and even some Presbyterians we had in our fellowship. In fact, I had to be careful about what I preached, because I didn't know who was who, and I didn't want to alienate anyone, so when I preached, I was a "one message man" - Christ and Him crucified and risen from the dead.

When we lost our minister through lack of finances and became an elder-run church, I had the job of arranging visiting preachers. Instead of using the list of elderly dried up retired Presbyterian ministers, I arranged for my Charismatic mates to come and preach to us. One Sunday morning one gave prophecies to every member present and they were remarkably accurate, seeing that the preacher was a total stranger to the congregation; and no one complained at all. They just drank it all in!

I think that the people in the church felt that the gifts of the Spirit were an unknown quantity for them, and they did not want to go overboard in things they didn't know about. Presbyterians can be very cautious that way. Yet, my friend who runs a prophetic ministry and itinerates around different churches tells me that the most powerful prophecies came from Charismatic Presbyterian elders!

When there were people in the church with medical conditions, when I offered prayer for them, none of them refused. I told them that they didn't need faith, because I had enough faith for both of us, and I just took their wrist and said, "Jesus heals you". They might have resisted if I had got them up to the front of the church and started publicly laying hands on their heads and prayed dramatic Pentecostal prayers over them. When I pray for a sick person, I am so discrete that even someone sitting nearby would think I was just having a normal talk with them. That way, people are not embarrassed by theatrical displays and their privacy is preserved.

So those people didn't care that I prayed in tongues (not in front of them of course), gave prophecies ("If Jesus was here He might have said this to you"), and prayed for sick people. They saw me as just another brother in Christ, who was prepared to do the work of church treasurer, be an elder, and lead from behind so as to encourage others to take more prominent roles in the church. Therefore they view me as a person first, and not just as a Charismatic. Isn't that the way we should view all our brothers and sisters in Christ?

It means that I can join any non-Charismatic church and be fully accepted if I present myself as a genuine, Christ-centred believer and brother in Christ, without trying to push my idealized theology on to them. It's a matter of respecting who they are in themselves and working with them as the Spirit leads.

I have a lot to say about that, but lack time. I've seen 3 very strange movies in the last 3 days, and the craziest one was less than 15 minutes ago. Your post beat them all, but makes sense. You seem to be in a place where there is still Christian outreach in that way. God bless, and praise God.

But I would warn you that it doesn't always work out that way. Our last pastor, who quit due to a return to drinking, gave up because he couldn't bring back his old experiences, pretty much as you described it. He desperately tried to regain some previous time in his life, when his ministry was on fire.

Be ready in season and out of season. But in the meantime, enjoy it!

I totally agree with everything you have said.

I mentioned the spirituality aspect because you were under the impression that I might have thought I was superior because I pray in tongues than others who don't have that facility. I wanted to put you right about that by explaining what I think the notion of degrees of spirituality is - New Age mysticism. My attitude to myself is the same as what Charles Spurgeon quoted:

"I'm just a poor sinner and nothing at all;
But Jesus Christ is my all in all."

It is interesting that Paul said that he spoke in tongues more than all the Corinthians put together, but he also referred to himself as "the chief of sinners". So, obviously, Paul did not see himself as superior to anyone through speaking in tongues.

Yes. We all have our various roles in the body of Christ, and the Holy Spirit gifts us accordingly as He wills. Just like in an orchestra. I played the viola in the Christchurch Orchestral Society, but I couldn't go and play and clarinet, or be in the first violins, because they were not my particular instruments. When I worked for the District Court as a Victim Advisor, I couldn't go and be a prosecuting attorney, or sit on the Bench as the Judge.

So, in the church, although I can play the piano as well as the guitar, I am not the pianist. There is a lady who has that ministry in the fellowship. I can't be the minister because I am not ordained to be one in that denomination, so when I am asked to take services, or use my guitar, they are backup roles when either the minister or pianist cannot be there. But I do have experience and skills in accounting, so I was treasurer for 23 years in my last Presbyterian church, and have been invited to accept the job in my present one. But I can't manage the Op Shop because I don't have those skills to do a good job of it, but there is a lady in the church who is expert at it, and raises a lot of funds for the church through it.

So these are my examples of how I see different roles and ministries in the Body of Christ. I have seen people who have done an excellent job at being a deacon, but when promoted to eldership makes a hash of it. Some who is a great Sunday School teacher, going to Seminary, coming back as minister and the people groan under his ineffective ministry. And yet, a church janitor can go to the same Seminary, and become a wonderful minister and pastor of a church.

So, in the area of spiritual gifts, we have people who may be great in the area of administrations and helps, try to be prophets and make a hash of it because they are not called to be prophets. Others who are great in their home churches, try to be apostles and go out to other countries and fail miserably. We have Healing ministries who try as they might can't get people healed, because they have promoted themselves to the ministry instead of the Holy Spirit calling them to it. And yet we have simple home group leaders praying for sick people and getting them healed, and a Sunday School child giving a powerful prophecy that encourages and uplifts the whole congregation, and a group of grandmas in the basement interceding in tongues while the preacher overhead is preaching a powerful Gospel and bringing scores of sinners to Christ.

abraham had haggar
David had bathsheba
Your pastor had alcohol.

Does not mean God can not see his mission through.

They say the best format to start a ministry is a destroyed reputation.

If God intended to use him to start revival....revival through him may possibly be even more intense.( should he step into his anointing)

A farmer has to plow. Prepare the soil.
Revival needs components to sustain.
The Holy Spirit shows up. Then men can make room for Him or quench the revival.

While there are Charismatic Presbyterians (In New Zealand anyway), the one I went to in Auckland didn't want to be Charismatic, although there were some Charismatics in the membership. My church was half way between two suburbs, Papakura and Manurewa. The Papakura church was Charismatic, and the Manurewa church was Calvinist. The elders of my church wanted to be middle of the road between the two. There were members who clearly testified of their own healing by the power of God. And there were other members who said quite clearly that they didn't want the church to become a Pentecostal one. But we all had fellowship with each other as Christian believers, and lost sight of the mixture of Baptists, Anglicans, Charismatics, Catholics, and even some Presbyterians we had in our fellowship. In fact, I had to be careful about what I preached, because I didn't know who was who, and I didn't want to alienate anyone, so when I preached, I was a "one message man" - Christ and Him crucified and risen from the dead.

When we lost our minister through lack of finances and became an elder-run church, I had the job of arranging visiting preachers. Instead of using the list of elderly dried up retired Presbyterian ministers, I arranged for my Charismatic mates to come and preach to us. One Sunday morning one gave prophecies to every member present and they were remarkably accurate, seeing that the preacher was a total stranger to the congregation; and no one complained at all. They just drank it all in!

I think that the people in the church felt that the gifts of the Spirit were an unknown quantity for them, and they did not want to go overboard in things they didn't know about. Presbyterians can be very cautious that way. Yet, my friend who runs a prophetic ministry and itinerates around different churches tells me that the most powerful prophecies came from Charismatic Presbyterian elders!

When there were people in the church with medical conditions, when I offered prayer for them, none of them refused. I told them that they didn't need faith, because I had enough faith for both of us, and I just took their wrist and said, "Jesus heals you". They might have resisted if I had got them up to the front of the church and started publicly laying hands on their heads and prayed dramatic Pentecostal prayers over them. When I pray for a sick person, I am so discrete that even someone sitting nearby would think I was just having a normal talk with them. That way, people are not embarrassed by theatrical displays and their privacy is preserved.

So those people didn't care that I prayed in tongues (not in front of them of course), gave prophecies ("If Jesus was here He might have said this to you"), and prayed for sick people. They saw me as just another brother in Christ, who was prepared to do the work of church treasurer, be an elder, and lead from behind so as to encourage others to take more prominent roles in the church. Therefore they view me as a person first, and not just as a Charismatic. Isn't that the way we should view all our brothers and sisters in Christ?

It means that I can join any non-Charismatic church and be fully accepted if I present myself as a genuine, Christ-centred believer and brother in Christ, without trying to push my idealized theology on to them. It's a matter of respecting who they are in themselves and working with them as the Spirit leads.

I totally agree with everything you have said.

I mentioned the spirituality aspect because you were under the impression that I might have thought I was superior because I pray in tongues than others who don't have that facility. I wanted to put you right about that by explaining what I think the notion of degrees of spirituality is - New Age mysticism. My attitude to myself is the same as what Charles Spurgeon quoted:

"I'm just a poor sinner and nothing at all;
But Jesus Christ is my all in all."

It is interesting that Paul said that he spoke in tongues more than all the Corinthians put together, but he also referred to himself as "the chief of sinners". So, obviously, Paul did not see himself as superior to anyone through speaking in tongues.

Yes. We all have our various roles in the body of Christ, and the Holy Spirit gifts us accordingly as He wills. Just like in an orchestra. I played the viola in the Christchurch Orchestral Society, but I couldn't go and play and clarinet, or be in the first violins, because they were not my particular instruments. When I worked for the District Court as a Victim Advisor, I couldn't go and be a prosecuting attorney, or sit on the Bench as the Judge.

So, in the church, although I can play the piano as well as the guitar, I am not the pianist. There is a lady who has that ministry in the fellowship. I can't be the minister because I am not ordained to be one in that denomination, so when I am asked to take services, or use my guitar, they are backup roles when either the minister or pianist cannot be there. But I do have experience and skills in accounting, so I was treasurer for 23 years in my last Presbyterian church, and have been invited to accept the job in my present one. But I can't manage the Op Shop because I don't have those skills to do a good job of it, but there is a lady in the church who is expert at it, and raises a lot of funds for the church through it.

So these are my examples of how I see different roles and ministries in the Body of Christ. I have seen people who have done an excellent job at being a deacon, but when promoted to eldership makes a hash of it. Some who is a great Sunday School teacher, going to Seminary, coming back as minister and the people groan under his ineffective ministry. And yet, a church janitor can go to the same Seminary, and become a wonderful minister and pastor of a church.

So, in the area of spiritual gifts, we have people who may be great in the area of administrations and helps, try to be prophets and make a hash of it because they are not called to be prophets. Others who are great in their home churches, try to be apostles and go out to other countries and fail miserably. We have Healing ministries who try as they might can't get people healed, because they have promoted themselves to the ministry instead of the Holy Spirit calling them to it. And yet we have simple home group leaders praying for sick people and getting them healed, and a Sunday School child giving a powerful prophecy that encourages and uplifts the whole congregation, and a group of grandmas in the basement interceding in tongues while the preacher overhead is preaching a powerful Gospel and bringing scores of sinners to Christ.

coming from a guy who instructs other to read


book "1984" by George Orwell, a known socialist, and a great example of modern humanism. I would never advise a Christian to read this without first understanding the person. That is what I am talking about these socialist humanistic Christians need pagan, occult, and secular modernism to explain the word of God. Yet they lack the ability to show by the word of God the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today. Sad.

They worship head knowledge and think salvation is achieved by how much of the Bible they know or think they know.

They claim the gifts are not for today because it insults their intellect like the well-educated Greeks and philosophers. The Cross is foolishness to them. Paul said speaking about the "Last days in 2 Tim chapter 3 and warning bout those who have crept into the church




1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. (dynamis) And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

the gifts of the Holy Spirit offend their intelligence. Why? Because they are incapable of accepting what is clearly seen in scripture and they are embarrassed by those who have misused them. It has to be this because we agree with them of those who are fake and foolish and fleecing the flock for money.


But that's not it. They attack the Gifts of the Holy Spirit because it is not rational thinking. Yet those who attack the fake on TV and those who are perverting the gifts of the Holy Spirit for money those who also on tv speaking out against it

Wearing $1000 suites and have over 6 figure salaries.

Those who are concessionist too are very rich it seems Just not as flamboyant as those they speak out against.

FYI that is called a hypocrite. They base the whole Idea that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today not because of the foolishness of those who do abuse them no,

They will show you videos to reinforce their idea that once the Bible was canonized the gifts just stopped. Then show you the fake use of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and YELL SEE it has stopped.

But when asked please prove that 1cor chapter 13: 8-9 means the gifts have stopped


8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.


WE ask them how do you translate or interpret this to mean that the "Perfect" is the canonization of the Bible?
They can't. They will give you a history lesson and human reasoning but they can't show you from the word of God this to mean the Gifts of the Holy Spirit has stopped and not for today.



They get very mad then attack you and start to name call kind of like a liberal snowflake wearing a pink hat.

Oh wait look at this fake video of Benny Hinn, or Kenneth Copland, or this guy to that guy or women, then they jump into 1cor 14 about women being silent. All those who say this wearing $1000 suites


Excuse me please show me the proof from the Word of God?

I did! I gave you 1cor 13:8-9 you are just to wolven into your pentacostel doctrine. look at this video.

But.... 1cor 13:8-9 doesn't say the gift has ceased, it says they will cease and I am asking you how is the "perfect" to mean the bible?


IS NOT THE WORD OF GOD PERFECT!!!!!

Yes, it is amen, but so are the Holy Spirits' gifts. Has the Holy Spirit ever gave anything to the church that was not perfect?

Listen !!!!! the KJV Bible is that which was perfect to Come OK !!!!!


Ok, But Jesus said in the KJV Bible in Mark 16:15-18


5 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name, they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”


THAT WAS ADDED AN NOT PART OF THE ORIGINAL TRANSLATION !!!

I see,


Thank you, and I will continue to pray with my understand and pray in the Spirit, I will lay hands on the sick and see those saved and addictions are broken by the Power of the Holy Spirit as I preach the Gospel message of the Lord Jesus Christ, having the word of God confirmed with signs & wonders.

By those set free, saved, delivered, and yes healed. IF you are not seeing that don't get mad at me because I am, You talk to your Boss and ask HIM why you are not.

you keep your power/point presentation there is no power in it so what's the point?

You think your level of knowledge, has saved you and keeps you saved. You provide no hope to the addicted or the sick because you are afraid and have doubt. You are fearful to trust God because your eyes are on those who abuse the gifts instead of keeping your eyes on Jesus. And you are more concerned about what the world thinks about you.

You think that you can save someone from error because of your human reasoning. You have an issue with those on tv then address those people not the gift of the Holy Spirit.

seeking the occult and pagan practices and trying to toe tag the Gifts of the Holy Spirit to it. Shame on you. You have an issue with

Kenneth Copland, and those on TV Please I'm sure you have the ability to get their address and phone number and speak to them about their error You have my blessing to do so.

once a person pursues the anointing, attacking will come as well as tremendous temptation.

The enemy will invoke many many demons to stop the anointing and revival.