Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?
- Thread starter ronair
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Tell me, why do you need to speak in babble that no one can understand? Or heal that really isn’t healing? Or tell the future like a witch when God say’s if your foretelling does not come about? You are to be stoned to death. Or ask for God to send his holy spirit, when he is already in every child of his upon conversion? Like why fo need to do these things?
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On the surface, what you are saying is correct. I had to laugh when I saw your very large font when showing a point. Made me remember a preachers notes left behind in the pulpit. It had notes in the margin showing where to lift an arm, point to the sky, thump the pulpit, and a paragraph heavily highlighted in red with the margin note: SHOUT FOR ALL YOU'RE WORTH. ARGUMENT VERY WEAK!"
But I suspect that there is a subtext in your post - something that you are implying but not saying right out. The question is: how are you applying your comments to Pentecostals who believe that Jesus shows His compassion by healing sick folk today, and releasing victims from demonic oppression in their lives? Because that is what you are doing in your sub-text aren't you?
But I suspect that there is a subtext in your post - something that you are implying but not saying right out. The question is: how are you applying your comments to Pentecostals who believe that Jesus shows His compassion by healing sick folk today, and releasing victims from demonic oppression in their lives? Because that is what you are doing in your sub-text aren't you?
lol
I understand now , I notice there are a few folks who are simply intent on argument and have no interest in discussion and ill Make the adjustments and avoid those folks as they attempt to constantly bait others into the bitterness and juvenile attitudes and insults ect ect So Thanks for making that clear so
I don’t try to discuss with you anymore
Oh? I have a friend who grew up in Kenya during the 1950s and attended Pentecostal churches with his parents. His description did not including anything like WOF or prosperity gospel. He said that those churches were much more godly and faithful to Christ than many western Pentecostal churches.
So, saying that "Africa was saved through the WOF movement" is a meaningless generalization that doesn't fit the real facts.
So, saying that "Africa was saved through the WOF movement" is a meaningless generalization that doesn't fit the real facts.
I notice when people don’t actually want to discuss something that doesn’t agree with thier point they will always look for anything other than what you said Tom pick at and attempt to send the docsuseion down a road of argument and conflict based on everything but scripture .
I’m not interested in your critique of how I wrote my post , was just attempting to participate in your discussion , I see that the way i write has caused a diversion off track
Of the subject so I will digress and
Let you two wrote your own thoughts your own way
I’m sure the punctuation and grammar will Be very nice , and the insults creative but it’s not a good example for
Anyone so I will Look for a different discussion and let you folks have your thread hopefully everyone writes the proper way so their point might actually be considered rather than , thier form picked at and the content ignored that’s probably most important 🙂
I’m not interested in your critique of how I wrote my post , was just attempting to participate in your discussion , I see that the way i write has caused a diversion off track
Of the subject so I will digress and
Let you two wrote your own thoughts your own way
I’m sure the punctuation and grammar will Be very nice , and the insults creative but it’s not a good example for
Anyone so I will Look for a different discussion and let you folks have your thread hopefully everyone writes the proper way so their point might actually be considered rather than , thier form picked at and the content ignored that’s probably most important 🙂
You can't produce even one Scripture that supports the false notion that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit were meant to cease. I could ask you to show me one reference where the word "temporary" is used in relation to the gifts of the Spirit, but I know that you won't be able to, and all you will do is to repeat the old worn out chestnuts to try and show they have ceased, which go like water off a duck's back for most Spirit-filled people who hear them.
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The Scripture does not say that the three will end before the completion of the church age. The notion that the 'perfect" relates to the canon of Scripture was dreamed up by an idiot who dreamed that he was a Bible commentator but woke up to find himself in Cloud Cuckoo Land. It is a lunatic fringe interpretation that no intelligent believer actually accepts.
You say that your opposition to tongues and prophecy for today is based on your study of Scripture? Where? Show me.
Are you saying that Jesus has changed from the 1st Century and that He no longer has the compassion to miraculously heal terminally ill people and others with incurable medical conditions? Do you actually know who Jesus is?
Where in the New Testament does it say that the Holy Spirit has stopped working with the body of Christ as He did with the early church? Where does Paul say to the Corinthians that their use of the gift of tongues and prophecy is only temporary, and when they finally get all his letters, and the Gospels and the letters of the other Apostles together to form a canon, that these gifts will suddenly cease?
They actually had what they believed was a canon of Scripture in the 2nd Century, but the church fathers of the time reported that tongues, prophecy and miracles of healing were still happening. Augustine in the 4th Century reported the same in the churches under his jurisdiction, and the canon of Scripture was firmly in place by that time.
Here is my response to the "perfect" being the canon of Scripture:
Are you saying that Jesus has changed from the 1st Century and that He no longer has the compassion to miraculously heal terminally ill people and others with incurable medical conditions? Do you actually know who Jesus is?
Where in the New Testament does it say that the Holy Spirit has stopped working with the body of Christ as He did with the early church? Where does Paul say to the Corinthians that their use of the gift of tongues and prophecy is only temporary, and when they finally get all his letters, and the Gospels and the letters of the other Apostles together to form a canon, that these gifts will suddenly cease?
They actually had what they believed was a canon of Scripture in the 2nd Century, but the church fathers of the time reported that tongues, prophecy and miracles of healing were still happening. Augustine in the 4th Century reported the same in the churches under his jurisdiction, and the canon of Scripture was firmly in place by that time.
Here is my response to the "perfect" being the canon of Scripture:
brother , please hear what I’m saying about the correlation between faith and spiritual gifts
do you see how you understand tongues is still very valid ? That’s because in your faith Gods word about tongues is written solidly you have a good grasp of the matter that tongues is still areal and valuable gift within the church .
the reason others sometimes are convinced it has “Ceased” is because no one preaches it , so no one hears it , no one understands its place , no one hears much about any spiritual gift so
Therefore no one can possibly believe and receive what they haven’t heard about
that’s how faith works is the correlation a good example is when a group of believers hadn’t heard about the Holy Spirit , so they couldn’t have received it they had no faith written on their heart about it they hadn’t heard . So when they hear about the spirit , they are baptized into Christ and then receive the Holy Spirit because now their faith includes the understanding of receiving the Holy Spirit
do you see what I’m saying at all ? Instead of arguing out tongues show it’s purpose and function in scripture and show that not everyone receives it , others receive other gifts Bible teaching is a spiritual gift , having alot of faith is a spiritual gift , administration is a spiritual Gift the thing is if we’re arguing and insulting each other were
Missing the whole entire point of spiritual gifts and how they are designed by God to bring believers together ot
Makes up the church
to create or even participate in an argument about spiritual gifts isn’t the way for sure look at the purpose of them
“Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom;
to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another faith by the same Spirit;
to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
To another the working of miracles;
to another prophecy;
to another discerning of spirits;
to another divers kinds of tongues;
to another the interpretation of tongues:
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.”
1 Corinthians 12:1, 4-12 KJV
The only reason we have spiritual gifts is for the betterment of all and the unification of the one body rather than an argument if people hear about the gifts your so convinced of them they can begin to believe but if you are arguing and drawn into bitterness and insult it’s a lot harder to hear about the gifts
when I use bold it’s simply to make a point that’s the only reason it’s not yelling that’s only perception
faith has to be what we hear from the gospel is my point of we begin to share those things in scripture in the right spirit like the gift of tongues more people would be willing to accept what’s in scripture rather than bickering
do you see how you understand tongues is still very valid ? That’s because in your faith Gods word about tongues is written solidly you have a good grasp of the matter that tongues is still areal and valuable gift within the church .
the reason others sometimes are convinced it has “Ceased” is because no one preaches it , so no one hears it , no one understands its place , no one hears much about any spiritual gift so
Therefore no one can possibly believe and receive what they haven’t heard about
that’s how faith works is the correlation a good example is when a group of believers hadn’t heard about the Holy Spirit , so they couldn’t have received it they had no faith written on their heart about it they hadn’t heard . So when they hear about the spirit , they are baptized into Christ and then receive the Holy Spirit because now their faith includes the understanding of receiving the Holy Spirit
do you see what I’m saying at all ? Instead of arguing out tongues show it’s purpose and function in scripture and show that not everyone receives it , others receive other gifts Bible teaching is a spiritual gift , having alot of faith is a spiritual gift , administration is a spiritual Gift the thing is if we’re arguing and insulting each other were
Missing the whole entire point of spiritual gifts and how they are designed by God to bring believers together ot
Makes up the church
to create or even participate in an argument about spiritual gifts isn’t the way for sure look at the purpose of them
“Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom;
to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another faith by the same Spirit;
to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
To another the working of miracles;
to another prophecy;
to another discerning of spirits;
to another divers kinds of tongues;
to another the interpretation of tongues:
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.”
1 Corinthians 12:1, 4-12 KJV
The only reason we have spiritual gifts is for the betterment of all and the unification of the one body rather than an argument if people hear about the gifts your so convinced of them they can begin to believe but if you are arguing and drawn into bitterness and insult it’s a lot harder to hear about the gifts
when I use bold it’s simply to make a point that’s the only reason it’s not yelling that’s only perception
faith has to be what we hear from the gospel is my point of we begin to share those things in scripture in the right spirit like the gift of tongues more people would be willing to accept what’s in scripture rather than bickering
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When Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 13, he had no conception of a perfect canon of Scripture. He taught from Moses and the Prophets, so most of your description of perfect Scripture is of Moses, the Prophets and Psalms. The New Testament didn't exist yet. The only perfection that Paul knew and was talking about is when this imperfect church will pass into history and perfect fellowship with Christ in glory will make the gifts redundant.
All your Scriptural quotes have nothing to do with the Spiritual gifts. All you are doing is to try and make the Bible say what you want it to say concerning them. That's called perverting God's Word.
All your Scriptural quotes have nothing to do with the Spiritual gifts. All you are doing is to try and make the Bible say what you want it to say concerning them. That's called perverting God's Word.
You large font comments show that your arguments are baseless and have no Scriptural support. You know that very well. The strength of an argument is when it is firmly based in direct Scripture that supports it. It already has been proved that 1 Corinthians 13:8-9 is not a support for the cessation of tongues and prophecy in our time, in act, it has nothing to do with the 1 Corinthians 12 gift of tongues, nor has it anything to do with the tongues Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 14. So, using the interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13:8-9 by some 19th Century crackpot is no proof at all. Any intelligent believer who knows the Scripture knows that.
You do not know me, and you insult my character and assume I have bad motives. Again, that speaks more to your own character than it does to mine.
If someone is walking holy with the Lord, he is careful not to make wild, unsubstantiated accusations against other lest he commit the sin of slander. Your posts do not come off as particularly humble.
And no, I did not say or imply that 'love is not a part of the whole plan'? Where did you get that?
Maybe you avoid the issue and accuse because you do not have anything substantial to say on the subject. If not, study more. Not just assume your favorite teacher has it all figured out, but study and know the word of God yourself.
Where have I promoted an emotional "trip'n release"? I don't know what that is. It sounds like something a Hippie might say. I don't speak Hippie.
Quote me where you think I said that. You are not making much sense.
I have posted about very simple and straightforward truths about scripture in this thread. If you do not think so, deal with it specifically instead of accusing me and judging me based on your own opinions. I do not see any real substance in your posts, just accusations and false assertions. If you say I wrote that God is not love, that is just a false accusation. I have communicated plainly in the thread. You have thrown up the storm of dust--accusations without supporting what you have written by the word of God.
If you find fault with any interpretation of scripture I have posted, deal with it in detail and post why you think this is the case. Break from your typical form so far, and post something wise rather than just accusations.
If someone is walking holy with the Lord, he is careful not to make wild, unsubstantiated accusations against other lest he commit the sin of slander. Your posts do not come off as particularly humble.
And no, I did not say or imply that 'love is not a part of the whole plan'? Where did you get that?
Maybe you avoid the issue and accuse because you do not have anything substantial to say on the subject. If not, study more. Not just assume your favorite teacher has it all figured out, but study and know the word of God yourself.
Where have I promoted an emotional "trip'n release"? I don't know what that is. It sounds like something a Hippie might say. I don't speak Hippie.
Quote me where you think I said that. You are not making much sense.
I have posted about very simple and straightforward truths about scripture in this thread. If you do not think so, deal with it specifically instead of accusing me and judging me based on your own opinions. I do not see any real substance in your posts, just accusations and false assertions. If you say I wrote that God is not love, that is just a false accusation. I have communicated plainly in the thread. You have thrown up the storm of dust--accusations without supporting what you have written by the word of God.
If you find fault with any interpretation of scripture I have posted, deal with it in detail and post why you think this is the case. Break from your typical form so far, and post something wise rather than just accusations.
You don't know where you coming from man
You can't tell the difference between miracles of grace and mercy and power signs. You quoted it yourself "do men gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles? can an evil tree bear good fruit?
We could wish to see more peace, joy, love, long suffering etc from Evangelicalism, we do see a lot of provoking and envying. When Jesus spoke about fruit good or evil He was speaking in direct relationship to the miracles He was doing which the Evangelicals [oh pardon] Pharisees said were done by beezlebub.
I love Evangelicals we's all brethren ... most these days love me.
Correction, many workers of iniquity will SAY "have we not done many wonderful works" if they had done those things Jesus could not have blamed them for that's what we are told to do. The trick is to see the difference between "many" and "you" in "I never knew you"
Many is plural You is singular.
Many will no doubt come and say "we Pentecostals ... we Methodists, .... we Baptists ... did not we Baptists do many mighty works" thinking that denomination will save them. They enrolled with the church but they did not enrol with Jesus.
Doing miracles is not the question, the question is did they receive the Holy Spirit as we see they received Him in the bible. The experience in the bible is uniform and recognizable, whether the apostles at Pentecost or Cornelius or Corinth or Ephesus.
But the experience in the modern church is not uniform, folks say they have received Him but we see no evidence of it. .... until happily revival comes along. People seem to say "like yeh I got saved ho hum ... my wife is a good cook " like nothing outstanding has happened to them.
You can't tell the difference between miracles of grace and mercy and power signs. You quoted it yourself "do men gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles? can an evil tree bear good fruit?
We could wish to see more peace, joy, love, long suffering etc from Evangelicalism, we do see a lot of provoking and envying. When Jesus spoke about fruit good or evil He was speaking in direct relationship to the miracles He was doing which the Evangelicals [oh pardon] Pharisees said were done by beezlebub.
I love Evangelicals we's all brethren ... most these days love me.
Correction, many workers of iniquity will SAY "have we not done many wonderful works" if they had done those things Jesus could not have blamed them for that's what we are told to do. The trick is to see the difference between "many" and "you" in "I never knew you"
Many is plural You is singular.
Many will no doubt come and say "we Pentecostals ... we Methodists, .... we Baptists ... did not we Baptists do many mighty works" thinking that denomination will save them. They enrolled with the church but they did not enrol with Jesus.
Doing miracles is not the question, the question is did they receive the Holy Spirit as we see they received Him in the bible. The experience in the bible is uniform and recognizable, whether the apostles at Pentecost or Cornelius or Corinth or Ephesus.
But the experience in the modern church is not uniform, folks say they have received Him but we see no evidence of it. .... until happily revival comes along. People seem to say "like yeh I got saved ho hum ... my wife is a good cook " like nothing outstanding has happened to them.
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