Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?
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If it is scripture, it is TRUTH - whether you believe in it or not, whether you experience it or not.
Have you not read?
1 Cor. 12
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
Verse 8 is one of several of how God gives these gifts. My point is the highlighted text. Do you believe this or not? Some believers are given "a word of wisdom" by the Holy Spirit. To another a "word of Knowledge." Do you believe Paul or do you reject this and the next verses as not being true scripture?
Here is an example of a "word of knowledge."
You will have anything except Christ and Him crucified This is how every believer STARTS their walk with Christ. But God does not want believers staying at the cross: He wants believers to receive the mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit and then take the gospel to the world.
You must repent and make Christ the center of your devotion and worship I don't know of anyone that worship's gifts of the spirit! That would be silly. We worship the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
Question: why take one and ignore the other? We can get born again AND receive gifts of the Spirit.
Have you not read?
1 Cor. 12
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
Verse 8 is one of several of how God gives these gifts. My point is the highlighted text. Do you believe this or not? Some believers are given "a word of wisdom" by the Holy Spirit. To another a "word of Knowledge." Do you believe Paul or do you reject this and the next verses as not being true scripture?
Here is an example of a "word of knowledge."
You will have anything except Christ and Him crucified This is how every believer STARTS their walk with Christ. But God does not want believers staying at the cross: He wants believers to receive the mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit and then take the gospel to the world.
You must repent and make Christ the center of your devotion and worship I don't know of anyone that worship's gifts of the spirit! That would be silly. We worship the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
Question: why take one and ignore the other? We can get born again AND receive gifts of the Spirit.
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Modern day prophets especially Gentiles should be assumed to be fraudulent. This is one of the silliest assertions I have heard lately.
Is God still God? Is God changeable? Are there Pastors today? Are there teachers today? What does scripture say?
Eph 4:
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Has the church arrived at "unity of the faith?" Is the "work of the ministry" still ongoing? Has the body of Christ arrived at a place fully "edified?" Has the church arrived at the full "knowledge of the Son of God?" Do we all live up to the "stature of the fullness of Christ?"
Then God still needs and is using apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. These are called "the fivefold ministry" gifts of Christ.
Is God still God? Is God changeable? Are there Pastors today? Are there teachers today? What does scripture say?
Eph 4:
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Has the church arrived at "unity of the faith?" Is the "work of the ministry" still ongoing? Has the body of Christ arrived at a place fully "edified?" Has the church arrived at the full "knowledge of the Son of God?" Do we all live up to the "stature of the fullness of Christ?"
Then God still needs and is using apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. These are called "the fivefold ministry" gifts of Christ.
You do know this person is not accurate but providing his opinion. I can provide a doctor who can refute this opinion with His opinion.
yet that would not be anything other than you and I circling our wagons around our own bias.
If you are going to look at those who oppose the pentecostal experience from what they call pentecostalism, You must ask how did they( Pentecostals ) come to this understanding?
Those in 1906 - 1914 look at only one source the bible.
They looked at the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament as the Spirit of the Lord came upon Abraham, Moses, the Judges, the prophets, the kings.
They did explores by God's Spirit, : the display of power, speaking, miracles, forth-telling, and foretelling. This is well seen in the word of God.
In the New Testament: The Spirt of the Lord came upon Mary, filled John the baptist from the womb Mary and Elizabeth prophesied.
Jesus had the Holy Spirit come upon HIm without limitation, The Apostles, the gentiles, and finally down through church History :
Irenaeus, theologian of the Holy Spirit "The Spirit continues Christ's work in the church, which is itself a gift from the Spirit (Jaschke 1976:266-267)"
"the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the sanctification of man and his transformation into the image of Christ, living in us to grant divine life to us. This very same Spirit is also the source of all charismata." the term used for the gifts of the Holy Spirit found in 1cor chapter 12 -14
Tertullian Tertullian's main emphasis is on the doctrine of the Trinity. he had an experience with charismatic Christian from Africa.
Clement the "Divine, the Holy Spirit flowing down to us from above. "
Origen We are of opinion that this distinction may be observed in the Old Testament also, as when it is said, “He that giveth His Spirit to the people who are upon the earth, and Spirit to them who walk thereon.” For, without doubt, everyone who walks upon the earth (i.e., earthly and corporeal beings) is a partaker also of the Holy Spirit, receiving it from God.
Novatian a.d. 210–280 Moreover, the order of reason, and the authority of the faith in the disposition of the words and in the Scriptures of the Lord, admonish us after these things to believe also on the Holy Spirit, once promised to the Church, and in the appointed occasions of times given. For He was promised by Joel the prophet, but given by Christ. “In the last days,” says the prophet, “I will pour out of my Spirit upon my servants and my handmaids.” And the Lord said, “Receive ye the Holy Ghost
Augustine a.d. 354–430 Wherefore, when our Lord breathed on His disciples, and said, “Receive ye the Holy Ghost,”
The Moving of the Holy Spirit brought forth the Reformation and the great awaking and revival that swept through Europe.
it is the great cloud of witnesses that move a black preacher to ask can we have this today? and began to seek God empowerment of the Holy Spirt by faith and with fasting and prayer only thing they had was the bible as the legality to ask God for what was well seen in Both the Old and New Testament
The Book of Acts and the Gospels even the Lord Jesus himself as said in Mark chapter 16 and as John, the Baptist said the lord would do in John chapter 1.
No pagan books, no occultic rituals, no seeking the devil or demons. But calling on the Lord Jesus to do for them what they saw as Normative in scripture Both Old and New Testament.
Some would have you believe that those who were seeking God calling on Jesus the devil came before God and gave them something unbiblical or demonic.
Jesus said You who are evil know how to give good things to your children, how much MORE with your father in heaven Give you the Holy Spirit if you ASK HIM?
HOW MUCH MORE!!!!!, That promise was for me and you and to every person who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved and empowered to be a witness.
Denial of the historical context of the empowering of the Holy Spirit down through the church age because of bias and hatred and pride doesn't make one more correct but exposes the very resistance to what is well documented.
The Holy Spirit is real and HE is working in the lives of those surrendered to the Lord Jesus. God still heals today sets free and saves.
I thank God for Paul who said in 1cor chapter 12 and 14 DESIRE Spiritual gifts and forbids NOT to speak in tongues. read all three chapters contextually 12-14 of 1cor you will see The Holy Spirit desires to do what is and has been done from the beginning today.
From Acts chapter 2 all the way to 2021 today.
yet that would not be anything other than you and I circling our wagons around our own bias.
If you are going to look at those who oppose the pentecostal experience from what they call pentecostalism, You must ask how did they( Pentecostals ) come to this understanding?
Those in 1906 - 1914 look at only one source the bible.
They looked at the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament as the Spirit of the Lord came upon Abraham, Moses, the Judges, the prophets, the kings.
They did explores by God's Spirit, : the display of power, speaking, miracles, forth-telling, and foretelling. This is well seen in the word of God.
In the New Testament: The Spirt of the Lord came upon Mary, filled John the baptist from the womb Mary and Elizabeth prophesied.
Jesus had the Holy Spirit come upon HIm without limitation, The Apostles, the gentiles, and finally down through church History :
Irenaeus, theologian of the Holy Spirit "The Spirit continues Christ's work in the church, which is itself a gift from the Spirit (Jaschke 1976:266-267)"
"the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the sanctification of man and his transformation into the image of Christ, living in us to grant divine life to us. This very same Spirit is also the source of all charismata." the term used for the gifts of the Holy Spirit found in 1cor chapter 12 -14
Tertullian Tertullian's main emphasis is on the doctrine of the Trinity. he had an experience with charismatic Christian from Africa.
Clement the "Divine, the Holy Spirit flowing down to us from above. "
Origen We are of opinion that this distinction may be observed in the Old Testament also, as when it is said, “He that giveth His Spirit to the people who are upon the earth, and Spirit to them who walk thereon.” For, without doubt, everyone who walks upon the earth (i.e., earthly and corporeal beings) is a partaker also of the Holy Spirit, receiving it from God.
Novatian a.d. 210–280 Moreover, the order of reason, and the authority of the faith in the disposition of the words and in the Scriptures of the Lord, admonish us after these things to believe also on the Holy Spirit, once promised to the Church, and in the appointed occasions of times given. For He was promised by Joel the prophet, but given by Christ. “In the last days,” says the prophet, “I will pour out of my Spirit upon my servants and my handmaids.” And the Lord said, “Receive ye the Holy Ghost
Augustine a.d. 354–430 Wherefore, when our Lord breathed on His disciples, and said, “Receive ye the Holy Ghost,”
The Moving of the Holy Spirit brought forth the Reformation and the great awaking and revival that swept through Europe.
it is the great cloud of witnesses that move a black preacher to ask can we have this today? and began to seek God empowerment of the Holy Spirt by faith and with fasting and prayer only thing they had was the bible as the legality to ask God for what was well seen in Both the Old and New Testament
The Book of Acts and the Gospels even the Lord Jesus himself as said in Mark chapter 16 and as John, the Baptist said the lord would do in John chapter 1.
No pagan books, no occultic rituals, no seeking the devil or demons. But calling on the Lord Jesus to do for them what they saw as Normative in scripture Both Old and New Testament.
Some would have you believe that those who were seeking God calling on Jesus the devil came before God and gave them something unbiblical or demonic.
Jesus said You who are evil know how to give good things to your children, how much MORE with your father in heaven Give you the Holy Spirit if you ASK HIM?
HOW MUCH MORE!!!!!, That promise was for me and you and to every person who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved and empowered to be a witness.
Denial of the historical context of the empowering of the Holy Spirit down through the church age because of bias and hatred and pride doesn't make one more correct but exposes the very resistance to what is well documented.
The Holy Spirit is real and HE is working in the lives of those surrendered to the Lord Jesus. God still heals today sets free and saves.
I thank God for Paul who said in 1cor chapter 12 and 14 DESIRE Spiritual gifts and forbids NOT to speak in tongues. read all three chapters contextually 12-14 of 1cor you will see The Holy Spirit desires to do what is and has been done from the beginning today.
From Acts chapter 2 all the way to 2021 today.
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B
I didnt think he was being oppositional at all. I thought he was giving an account of the rise of Pentecostalism as far as American history goes.
I though he was pretty clear in saying that the movement didn't arrive from a vacuum. I also thought he was quite careful even saying that we must be careful many times, he ever refered to our Pentecostal brothers and sisters.
More defining the movement historically that theologically.
I though he was pretty clear in saying that the movement didn't arrive from a vacuum. I also thought he was quite careful even saying that we must be careful many times, he ever refered to our Pentecostal brothers and sisters.
More defining the movement historically that theologically.
B
I give an example one time my wife and I were attending a church, and a divorced couple began coming to the church. The wife had custody of the child. They had people taking sides in their arguement. My wife asked me what I thought. I knew inside that they were both toxic and a source of division. I told her time will reveal who they are. Little did I know it was the spirit giving me wisdom to see through this mess. Sure enough they tipped their hand and ended up going elsewhere.
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B
I do believe that the spirit operates in the believer, I just don't see it as overt and flamboyant as what has been displayed by some factions.
I have never spoken I'm tongues, but have been able to see through some muddy water as it were, this is a gift of the spirit. I have also been able to by the spirit immediately know a scripture verse to apply to situations. I live my life by faith, by the grace of the Lord. I don't say this to boast bit to witness that the Holy Spirit does empower us. However from what I have experienced for myself these manifestations are very subtle, and anyone being overt and flamboyant is pulling the wool over your eyes.
I have never spoken I'm tongues, but have been able to see through some muddy water as it were, this is a gift of the spirit. I have also been able to by the spirit immediately know a scripture verse to apply to situations. I live my life by faith, by the grace of the Lord. I don't say this to boast bit to witness that the Holy Spirit does empower us. However from what I have experienced for myself these manifestations are very subtle, and anyone being overt and flamboyant is pulling the wool over your eyes.
Dr. Ryan said pentecostal is unique " it really comes out of nowhere " The experience is not. he is trying to draw a correlation with the founding of pentecostalism which means one who identifies with the experience seen in the book of Acts known as the empowering of the Holy Spirit or Baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Now Dr. Rayan has a presumption that the church was not prescriptive but descriptive on the Holy Spirit in context to the book of Acts and Church History.
I completely disagree, the Holy Spirit empowering men is seen and is normative from the Old Testament through to the New Testament down through the church ages.
The sad thing is the word of God became more acceptable yet the church moved into a dark age where God was silent Yet HIS word was still on the earth. This is very interesting, because by the understanding of some the more you know the better you are, yet the church went dark or silent. The word of God was the same it was the day HE gave it, yet the church was overtaken in ungodly practices but there were Power moves of the Spirit of God that brought people back to the reality and obedience of God's word.
This was no different than what we see with Isreal where at different times God raised up a people or person by the power of HIS Spirit to shake up the masses. IF you read the Old Testament you will see where the people of God forgot God's days without numbers, they did not even pursue HIM, nor even prayed to HIM BUT when ONE DID GOD USED THEM and saved many people.
The empowering of the Holy Spirit in the believer is what is needed today to speak the word of God and God confirms it with signs and wonders BEcause OUR God is not dead BUT alive!
He is saving, healing, and setting free every day. And is believing that makes me a heretic so be it that scoffer and mockers so be it.
Now Dr. Rayan has a presumption that the church was not prescriptive but descriptive on the Holy Spirit in context to the book of Acts and Church History.
I completely disagree, the Holy Spirit empowering men is seen and is normative from the Old Testament through to the New Testament down through the church ages.
The sad thing is the word of God became more acceptable yet the church moved into a dark age where God was silent Yet HIS word was still on the earth. This is very interesting, because by the understanding of some the more you know the better you are, yet the church went dark or silent. The word of God was the same it was the day HE gave it, yet the church was overtaken in ungodly practices but there were Power moves of the Spirit of God that brought people back to the reality and obedience of God's word.
This was no different than what we see with Isreal where at different times God raised up a people or person by the power of HIS Spirit to shake up the masses. IF you read the Old Testament you will see where the people of God forgot God's days without numbers, they did not even pursue HIM, nor even prayed to HIM BUT when ONE DID GOD USED THEM and saved many people.
The empowering of the Holy Spirit in the believer is what is needed today to speak the word of God and God confirms it with signs and wonders BEcause OUR God is not dead BUT alive!
He is saving, healing, and setting free every day. And is believing that makes me a heretic so be it that scoffer and mockers so be it.
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the personality of the individual sometimes can be over the top as one might say.
yet Both Elijah & Elisha were direct and somewhat rude lol. Samson was in great error and disobedience before The Spirit lifted off of him, Peter was rebuked and told by Jesus to get behind me satan, Samuel a prophet was admonished by God for seeking in the flesh not in the Spirit.
yet with all their imperfections God was patient, forgiving, and held them all accountable. yes there are those who hurt the move of the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit can be quenched, resisted, Grieved, and even blasphemed. God will deal with all of that and in HIS word we are given how to do so too, yet the empowering of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the Gifts of Christ to the church are all for today. All the gifts, tongues, interpretation of tongues, and prophesying, Healing, working of miracles, and the gift of faith, word of wisdom, word of knowledge, and discerning of spirits.
Three power gifts, three vocal, and three knowledge gifts.
the gifts are broken down as the Charismata Latin, the pneumatikos Greek , and the didómi Greek
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On the contrary, Roger. You are on the very fringes of Christianity today. If you reject the gifts of the Holy Spirit, then you reject the Holy Spirit Himself. What is left is a church with no power. Sick people go in, and they leave the same way. Yet, Jesus took strips for their healing. If God has His way, sick people would come and they would leave healed, just as they did in Jesus' day. Cripples would come and leave healed. The blind and lame would come and leave healed. These things happen in Spirit filled churches. They don't in powerless churches. In Spirit filled churches, it is NORMAL for people to hear the voice of God. In churches who deny the power, few if any ever hear His voice.
May the church of Jesus Christ get back to the way it was in the book of Acts!
The truth is, these things ARE "uptome." They are up to each one of us. We appropriate the things of God by and through our own faith.
May the church of Jesus Christ get back to the way it was in the book of Acts!
The truth is, these things ARE "uptome." They are up to each one of us. We appropriate the things of God by and through our own faith.
I have repeated many verses that contradict this recent fad in the so called Christian church. I'm not going to continue to give scripture to those who have not desire to hear.
Only God can change the heart. In these end times men seek only to have their ears tickled. the reject correct doctrine.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Only God can change the heart. In these end times men seek only to have their ears tickled. the reject correct doctrine.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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