Calvinists are preaching a false message .

I never said that so why are you trying to make a lie of something? I already said "Saved by Grace Through Faith"Eph 2:8. The Holy Comes into you when you are saved to bare witness that you are a child of God as the word of God says. Rom 8:16

if is because of Faith YOU do receive christ The faith has been given to the person to receive. YOU are just stuck on salvation by works argument because you are into creating a false narrative. Without Faith, it is impossible to Please God so stop bashing faith.

I agree . There is no extra topping to this .

If God calls for all men everywhere to repent, can you explain to me, how can the natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, repent of breaking a spiritual law that he cannot discern, and thinks it to be foolishness?

Christ's death on the cross paid for the sins only of those that His Father gave to him. Christ's sacrifice was offered to God, for God's acceptance, and not to man, for man's acceptance.

Christ's work was finished on the cross, as he stated, securing eternal salvation for all that he died for.

Completely agree and teach the same. Jesus said, "no man comes to me except the Father draws him." This infers that God does not draw everyone.

Jesus death on the cross paid the penalty for those whom God foreknew and predestined to salvation and eternal life. We see this teaching everywhere in scripture:

"And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be."

"And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain."

The scriptures above in-part tell us two things:

1). The names of everyone would be saved were written in the book of life before world even began and ....

2). There were names that were not written in the book of life before the world began

Salvation is by God's Sovereign election:

=====================================================================================

Not only that, but Rebecca’s children were conceived by one man, our father Isaac. Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, not by works but by Him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! For He says to Moses:

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden."

=====================================================================================

"A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were [destined] for.

"I have made you a light for the Gentiles,

to bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were [appointed] for eternal life believed.

====================================================================================

They stumble because they disobey the gospel, which is also what they destined for?

All who were appointed for eternal life believed?

This demonstrates God's Sovereign election/choosing that some are appointed for salvation and other are not.

"So the Jews gathered around Him and demanded, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

“I already told you,” Jesus replied, “but you did not believe. The works I do in My Father’s name testify on My behalf. But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe.

===================================================================================

I could go on all day long with these examples. I think that people just have a hard time with the concept of salvation being God's Sovereign choice. Many will say, 'That's not fair!" Why not? Everyone is guilty of sin and is worthy of eternity in the lake of fire. But God in His great love and mercy decided to save some. While those that he did not choose to save, are still guilty of sin. To use a silly example, if a man is standing out on the street corner giving out $100 bills, but only to certain people, is the man being unfair? No! Because none of the people deserve the money in the first place. The man is free to give give his money to whomever he chooses.

Paul was addressing the people who would think that God is being unfair when in the scripture above he said "What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not!

Completely agree and teach the same. Jesus said, "no man comes to me except the Father draws him." This infers that God does not draw everyone.

Jesus death on the cross paid the penalty for those whom God foreknew and predestined to salvation and eternal life. We see this teaching everywhere in scripture:

"And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be."

"And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain."

The scriptures above in-part tell us two things:

1). The names of everyone would be saved were written in the book of life before world even began and ....

2). There were names that were not written in the book of life before the world began

Salvation is by God's Sovereign election:

=====================================================================================

Not only that, but Rebecca’s children were conceived by one man, our father Isaac. Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, not by works but by Him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! For He says to Moses:

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden."

=====================================================================================

"A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were [destined] for.

"I have made you a light for the Gentiles,

to bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were [appointed] for eternal life believed.

====================================================================================

They stumble because they disobey the gospel, which is also what they destined for?

All who were appointed for eternal life believed?

This demonstrates God's Sovereign election/choosing that some are appointed for salvation and other are not.

"So the Jews gathered around Him and demanded, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

“I already told you,” Jesus replied, “but you did not believe. The works I do in My Father’s name testify on My behalf. But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe.

===================================================================================

I could go on all day long with these examples. I think that people just have a hard time with the concept of salvation being God's Sovereign choice. Many will say, 'That's not fair!" Why not? Everyone is guilty of sin and is worthy of eternity in the lake of fire. But God in His great love and mercy decided to save some. While those that he did not choose to save, are still guilty of sin. To use a silly example, if a man is standing out on the street corner giving out $100 bills, but only to certain people, is the man being unfair? No! Because none of the people deserve the money in the first place. The man is free to give give his money to whomever he chooses.

Paul was addressing the people who would think that God is being unfair when in the scripture above he said "What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not!

Completely agree and teach the same. Jesus said, "no man comes to me except the Father draws him." This infers that God does not draw everyone.

Jesus death on the cross paid the penalty for those whom God foreknew and predestined to salvation and eternal life. We see this teaching everywhere in scripture:

"And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be."

"And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain."

The scriptures above in-part tell us two things:

1). The names of everyone would be saved were written in the book of life before world even began and ....

2). There were names that were not written in the book of life before the world began

Salvation is by God's Sovereign election:

=====================================================================================

Not only that, but Rebecca’s children were conceived by one man, our father Isaac. Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, not by works but by Him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! For He says to Moses:

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden."

=====================================================================================

"A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were [destined] for.

"I have made you a light for the Gentiles,

to bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were [appointed] for eternal life believed.

====================================================================================

They stumble because they disobey the gospel, which is also what they destined for?

All who were appointed for eternal life believed?

This demonstrates God's Sovereign election/choosing that some are appointed for salvation and other are not.

"So the Jews gathered around Him and demanded, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

“I already told you,” Jesus replied, “but you did not believe. The works I do in My Father’s name testify on My behalf. But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe.

===================================================================================

I could go on all day long with these examples. I think that people just have a hard time with the concept of salvation being God's Sovereign choice. Many will say, 'That's not fair!" Why not? Everyone is guilty of sin and is worthy of eternity in the lake of fire. But God in His great love and mercy decided to save some. While those that he did not choose to save, are still guilty of sin. To use a silly example, if a man is standing out on the street corner giving out $100 bills, but only to certain people, is the man being unfair? No! Because none of the people deserve the money in the first place. The man is free to give give his money to whomever he chooses.

Paul was addressing the people who would think that God is being unfair when in the scripture above he said "What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not!

Completely agree and teach the same. Jesus said, "no man comes to me except the Father draws him." This infers that God does not draw everyone.

Jesus death on the cross paid the penalty for those whom God foreknew and predestined to salvation and eternal life. We see this teaching everywhere in scripture:

"And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be."

"And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain."

The scriptures above in-part tell us two things:

1). The names of everyone would be saved were written in the book of life before world even began and ....

2). There were names that were not written in the book of life before the world began

Salvation is by God's Sovereign election:

=====================================================================================

Not only that, but Rebecca’s children were conceived by one man, our father Isaac. Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, not by works but by Him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! For He says to Moses:

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden."

=====================================================================================

"A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were [destined] for.

"I have made you a light for the Gentiles,

to bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were [appointed] for eternal life believed.

====================================================================================

They stumble because they disobey the gospel, which is also what they destined for?

All who were appointed for eternal life believed?

This demonstrates God's Sovereign election/choosing that some are appointed for salvation and other are not.

"So the Jews gathered around Him and demanded, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

“I already told you,” Jesus replied, “but you did not believe. The works I do in My Father’s name testify on My behalf. But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe.

===================================================================================

I could go on all day long with these examples. I think that people just have a hard time with the concept of salvation being God's Sovereign choice. Many will say, 'That's not fair!" Why not? Everyone is guilty of sin and is worthy of eternity in the lake of fire. But God in His great love and mercy decided to save some. While those that he did not choose to save, are still guilty of sin. To use a silly example, if a man is standing out on the street corner giving out $100 bills, but only to certain people, is the man being unfair? No! Because none of the people deserve the money in the first place. The man is free to give give his money to whomever he chooses.

Paul was addressing the people who would think that God is being unfair when in the scripture above he said "What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not!

Completely agree and teach the same. Jesus said, "no man comes to me except the Father draws him." This infers that God does not draw everyone.

Jesus death on the cross paid the penalty for those whom God foreknew and predestined to salvation and eternal life. We see this teaching everywhere in scripture:

"And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be."

"And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain."

The scriptures above in-part tell us two things:

1). The names of everyone would be saved were written in the book of life before world even began and ....

2). There were names that were not written in the book of life before the world began

Salvation is by God's Sovereign election:

=====================================================================================

Not only that, but Rebecca’s children were conceived by one man, our father Isaac. Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, not by works but by Him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! For He says to Moses:

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden."

=====================================================================================

"A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were [destined] for.

"I have made you a light for the Gentiles,

to bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were [appointed] for eternal life believed.

====================================================================================

They stumble because they disobey the gospel, which is also what they destined for?

All who were appointed for eternal life believed?

This demonstrates God's Sovereign election/choosing that some are appointed for salvation and other are not.

"So the Jews gathered around Him and demanded, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

“I already told you,” Jesus replied, “but you did not believe. The works I do in My Father’s name testify on My behalf. But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe.

===================================================================================

I could go on all day long with these examples. I think that people just have a hard time with the concept of salvation being God's Sovereign choice. Many will say, 'That's not fair!" Why not? Everyone is guilty of sin and is worthy of eternity in the lake of fire. But God in His great love and mercy decided to save some. While those that he did not choose to save, are still guilty of sin. To use a silly example, if a man is standing out on the street corner giving out $100 bills, but only to certain people, is the man being unfair? No! Because none of the people deserve the money in the first place. The man is free to give give his money to whomever he chooses.

Paul was addressing the people who would think that God is being unfair when in the scripture above he said "What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not!

Completely agree and teach the same. Jesus said, "no man comes to me except the Father draws him." This infers that God does not draw everyone.

Jesus death on the cross paid the penalty for those whom God foreknew and predestined to salvation and eternal life. We see this teaching everywhere in scripture:

"And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be."

"And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain."

The scriptures above in-part tell us two things:

1). The names of everyone would be saved were written in the book of life before world even began and ....

2). There were names that were not written in the book of life before the world began

Salvation is by God's Sovereign election:

=====================================================================================

Not only that, but Rebecca’s children were conceived by one man, our father Isaac. Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, not by works but by Him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! For He says to Moses:

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden."

=====================================================================================

"A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were [destined] for.

"I have made you a light for the Gentiles,

to bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were [appointed] for eternal life believed.

====================================================================================

They stumble because they disobey the gospel, which is also what they destined for?

All who were appointed for eternal life believed?

This demonstrates God's Sovereign election/choosing that some are appointed for salvation and other are not.

"So the Jews gathered around Him and demanded, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

“I already told you,” Jesus replied, “but you did not believe. The works I do in My Father’s name testify on My behalf. But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe.

===================================================================================

I could go on all day long with these examples. I think that people just have a hard time with the concept of salvation being God's Sovereign choice. Many will say, 'That's not fair!" Why not? Everyone is guilty of sin and is worthy of eternity in the lake of fire. But God in His great love and mercy decided to save some. While those that he did not choose to save, are still guilty of sin. To use a silly example, if a man is standing out on the street corner giving out $100 bills, but only to certain people, is the man being unfair? No! Because none of the people deserve the money in the first place. The man is free to give give his money to whomever he chooses.

Paul was addressing the people who would think that God is being unfair when in the scripture above he said "What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not!

Completely agree and teach the same. Jesus said, "no man comes to me except the Father draws him." This infers that God does not draw everyone.

Jesus death on the cross paid the penalty for those whom God foreknew and predestined to salvation and eternal life. We see this teaching everywhere in scripture:

"And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be."

"And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain."

The scriptures above in-part tell us two things:

1). The names of everyone would be saved were written in the book of life before world even began and ....

2). There were names that were not written in the book of life before the world began

Salvation is by God's Sovereign election:

=====================================================================================

Not only that, but Rebecca’s children were conceived by one man, our father Isaac. Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, not by works but by Him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! For He says to Moses:

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden."

=====================================================================================

"A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were [destined] for.

"I have made you a light for the Gentiles,

to bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were [appointed] for eternal life believed.

====================================================================================

They stumble because they disobey the gospel, which is also what they destined for?

All who were appointed for eternal life believed?

This demonstrates God's Sovereign election/choosing that some are appointed for salvation and other are not.

"So the Jews gathered around Him and demanded, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

“I already told you,” Jesus replied, “but you did not believe. The works I do in My Father’s name testify on My behalf. But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe.

===================================================================================

I could go on all day long with these examples. I think that people just have a hard time with the concept of salvation being God's Sovereign choice. Many will say, 'That's not fair!" Why not? Everyone is guilty of sin and is worthy of eternity in the lake of fire. But God in His great love and mercy decided to save some. While those that he did not choose to save, are still guilty of sin. To use a silly example, if a man is standing out on the street corner giving out $100 bills, but only to certain people, is the man being unfair? No! Because none of the people deserve the money in the first place. The man is free to give give his money to whomever he chooses.

Paul was addressing the people who would think that God is being unfair when in the scripture above he said "What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not!

//Completely agree and teach the same. Jesus said, "no man comes to me except the Father draws him." This infers that God does not draw everyone.//_/

If this infers that God does not draw everyone then what does John 12 . infer ?
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

It says ' written FROM ' Not before . Its an interesting study on the' books ' . book of the living? Names are blotted out which seems to suggest all names are written in at first , maybe ? I think the ESV doesn't help the situation either.

If a man can save 50 people in his life boat ( regardless what they have done ) but only chooses to save 5 will he not be seen as doing something wrong ?

Hello throughfaith!

All men = All those whose names were written in the book of life before the world began. It is the same for the following:

"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and onlye Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

The world = Those whom God chose throughout all of history to receive eternal life.

When reading one scripture, we have to bring in the others as well. We can't just use some and sweep the others under the table when they don't fit with our belief on any given Biblical subject. For example, what do you do with the following in light of salvation for the entire world?:

"A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for."

What they were destined for? That would infer predestination, i.e. they were not destined to believe. Here's another example

"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

All who were appointed? Again, that would infer predestination of those who were chosen to believe.

These scripture need to be addressed along with all the other related scriptures. We can't just read right over them. And I already mentioned the following:

"And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain."

" And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be."

Names that were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world?

These two scriptures in Revelation 13 & 17 demonstrate God's Sovereign choice in that there were names there were written in the book of life before the world began. And there were names that were not written in the book of life before the world began. And this is the cast throughout all of history. The chosen and those not chosen for eternal life.

"From and before" is not going to work, because it means prior to the on-set of the world. This is just an apologetic to circumvent the information because it doesn't fit with what you have adopted. I don't do that. I address all of the scriptures when forming my conclusion. What did you do with Acts 13:48 and 1 Peter 2:8 and what Paul wrote about regarding God raising up Pharaoh for the very purpose of displaying His power to the nations. Or before either of the twins were born, before they had done anything either bad or good, God said, Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated? What do you do with that information?

This isn't a matter of Calvinism, but of what the word of God has to say about any given subject.

"From and before" is not going to work, because it means prior to the on-set of the world. This is just an apologetic to circumvent the information because it doesn't fit with what you have adopted. I don't do that. I address all of the scriptures when forming my conclusion. What did you do with Acts 13:48 and 1 Peter 2:8 and what Paul wrote about regarding God raising up Pharaoh for the very purpose of displaying His power to the nations. Or before either of the twins were born, before they had done anything either bad or good, God said, Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated? What do you do with that information?

This isn't a matter of Calvinism, but of what the word of God has to say about any given subject.

Not is not a true comparison regarding this issue. Instead of stating these things, please address the scriptures that I have provided.

God would be completely vindicated if He let everyone in the boat sink and it would not be considered as wrong. But God in His Love and Sovereignty chose to save some, but not all. Those that He did not save are still guilty of their sins.

Hello throughfaith!

All men = All those whose names were written in the book of life before the world began. It is the same for the following:

"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and onlye Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

The world = Those whom God chose throughout all of history to receive eternal life.

When reading one scripture, we have to bring in the others as well. We can't just use some and sweep the others under the table when they don't fit with our belief on any given Biblical subject. For example, what do you do with the following in light of salvation for the entire world?:

"A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for."

What they were destined for? That would infer predestination, i.e. they were not destined to believe. Here's another example

"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

All who were appointed? Again, that would infer predestination of those who were chosen to believe.

These scripture need to be addressed along with all the other related scriptures. We can't just read right over them. And I already mentioned the following:

"And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain."

" And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be."

Names that were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world?

These two scriptures in Revelation 13 & 17 demonstrate God's Sovereign choice in that there were names there were written in the book of life before the world began. And there were names that were not written in the book of life before the world began. And this is the cast throughout all of history. The chosen and those not chosen for eternal life.

Hello throughfaith!

All men = All those whose names were written in the book of life before the world began. It is the same for the following:

"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and onlye Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

The world = Those whom God chose throughout all of history to receive eternal life.

When reading one scripture, we have to bring in the others as well. We can't just use some and sweep the others under the table when they don't fit with our belief on any given Biblical subject. For example, what do you do with the following in light of salvation for the entire world?:

"A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for."

What they were destined for? That would infer predestination, i.e. they were not destined to believe. Here's another example

"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

All who were appointed? Again, that would infer predestination of those who were chosen to believe.

These scripture need to be addressed along with all the other related scriptures. We can't just read right over them. And I already mentioned the following:

"And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain."

" And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be."

Names that were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world?

These two scriptures in Revelation 13 & 17 demonstrate God's Sovereign choice in that there were names there were written in the book of life before the world began. And there were names that were not written in the book of life before the world began. And this is the cast throughout all of history. The chosen and those not chosen for eternal life.

before the twins were BORN they were in the womb . Not before the universe began in eternity past.

Hi,
I've just been reading some of the posts above and its a very interesting debate. Some good reading.

But after reading your post I have quoted I realised that Ahwtukee had addressed this point already in post no:330. he quoted scripture here -" And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be." Rev 13:8.

That should hopefully answer your question that it was before even the womb?