Calvinists are preaching a false message .
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Completely agree and teach the same. Jesus said, "no man comes to me except the Father draws him." This infers that God does not draw everyone.
Jesus death on the cross paid the penalty for those whom God foreknew and predestined to salvation and eternal life. We see this teaching everywhere in scripture:
"And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be."
"And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain."
The scriptures above in-part tell us two things:
1). The names of everyone would be saved were written in the book of life before world even began and ....
2). There were names that were not written in the book of life before the world began
Salvation is by God's Sovereign election:
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Not only that, but Rebecca’s children were conceived by one man, our father Isaac. Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, not by works but by Him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! For He says to Moses:
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden."
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"A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were [destined] for.
"I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
to bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”
When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were [appointed] for eternal life believed.
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They stumble because they disobey the gospel, which is also what they destined for?
All who were appointed for eternal life believed?
This demonstrates God's Sovereign election/choosing that some are appointed for salvation and other are not.
"So the Jews gathered around Him and demanded, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
“I already told you,” Jesus replied, “but you did not believe. The works I do in My Father’s name testify on My behalf. But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe.
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I could go on all day long with these examples. I think that people just have a hard time with the concept of salvation being God's Sovereign choice. Many will say, 'That's not fair!" Why not? Everyone is guilty of sin and is worthy of eternity in the lake of fire. But God in His great love and mercy decided to save some. While those that he did not choose to save, are still guilty of sin. To use a silly example, if a man is standing out on the street corner giving out $100 bills, but only to certain people, is the man being unfair? No! Because none of the people deserve the money in the first place. The man is free to give give his money to whomever he chooses.
Paul was addressing the people who would think that God is being unfair when in the scripture above he said "What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not!
Jesus death on the cross paid the penalty for those whom God foreknew and predestined to salvation and eternal life. We see this teaching everywhere in scripture:
"And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be."
"And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain."
The scriptures above in-part tell us two things:
1). The names of everyone would be saved were written in the book of life before world even began and ....
2). There were names that were not written in the book of life before the world began
Salvation is by God's Sovereign election:
=====================================================================================
Not only that, but Rebecca’s children were conceived by one man, our father Isaac. Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, not by works but by Him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! For He says to Moses:
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden."
=====================================================================================
"A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were [destined] for.
"I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
to bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”
When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were [appointed] for eternal life believed.
====================================================================================
They stumble because they disobey the gospel, which is also what they destined for?
All who were appointed for eternal life believed?
This demonstrates God's Sovereign election/choosing that some are appointed for salvation and other are not.
"So the Jews gathered around Him and demanded, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
“I already told you,” Jesus replied, “but you did not believe. The works I do in My Father’s name testify on My behalf. But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe.
===================================================================================
I could go on all day long with these examples. I think that people just have a hard time with the concept of salvation being God's Sovereign choice. Many will say, 'That's not fair!" Why not? Everyone is guilty of sin and is worthy of eternity in the lake of fire. But God in His great love and mercy decided to save some. While those that he did not choose to save, are still guilty of sin. To use a silly example, if a man is standing out on the street corner giving out $100 bills, but only to certain people, is the man being unfair? No! Because none of the people deserve the money in the first place. The man is free to give give his money to whomever he chooses.
Paul was addressing the people who would think that God is being unfair when in the scripture above he said "What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not!
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Acts 13 .42
42¶And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles BESOUGHT that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
(The Gentiles respond and they themselves want to hear again. )
44¶And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
45But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
( in contrast notice these Jews put it from themselves and judge THEMSELVES . They reject for THEMSELVES.
we turn to the Gentiles.
Here's the response.
48¶And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
So the context is this .
1) The Jews chose to reject
2 ) The gentiles disposed themselves to believe . Thats it .
42¶And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles BESOUGHT that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
(The Gentiles respond and they themselves want to hear again. )
44¶And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
45But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
( in contrast notice these Jews put it from themselves and judge THEMSELVES . They reject for THEMSELVES.
we turn to the Gentiles.
Here's the response.
48¶And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
So the context is this .
1) The Jews chose to reject
2 ) The gentiles disposed themselves to believe . Thats it .
Hello throughfaith!
All men = All those whose names were written in the book of life before the world began. It is the same for the following:
"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and onlye Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."
The world = Those whom God chose throughout all of history to receive eternal life.
When reading one scripture, we have to bring in the others as well. We can't just use some and sweep the others under the table when they don't fit with our belief on any given Biblical subject. For example, what do you do with the following in light of salvation for the entire world?:
"A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for."
What they were destined for? That would infer predestination, i.e. they were not destined to believe. Here's another example
"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
All who were appointed? Again, that would infer predestination of those who were chosen to believe.
These scripture need to be addressed along with all the other related scriptures. We can't just read right over them. And I already mentioned the following:
"And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain."
" And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be."
Names that were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world?
These two scriptures in Revelation 13 & 17 demonstrate God's Sovereign choice in that there were names there were written in the book of life before the world began. And there were names that were not written in the book of life before the world began. And this is the cast throughout all of history. The chosen and those not chosen for eternal life.
All men = All those whose names were written in the book of life before the world began. It is the same for the following:
"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and onlye Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."
The world = Those whom God chose throughout all of history to receive eternal life.
When reading one scripture, we have to bring in the others as well. We can't just use some and sweep the others under the table when they don't fit with our belief on any given Biblical subject. For example, what do you do with the following in light of salvation for the entire world?:
"A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for."
What they were destined for? That would infer predestination, i.e. they were not destined to believe. Here's another example
"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
All who were appointed? Again, that would infer predestination of those who were chosen to believe.
These scripture need to be addressed along with all the other related scriptures. We can't just read right over them. And I already mentioned the following:
"And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain."
" And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be."
Names that were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world?
These two scriptures in Revelation 13 & 17 demonstrate God's Sovereign choice in that there were names there were written in the book of life before the world began. And there were names that were not written in the book of life before the world began. And this is the cast throughout all of history. The chosen and those not chosen for eternal life.
"From and before" is not going to work, because it means prior to the on-set of the world. This is just an apologetic to circumvent the information because it doesn't fit with what you have adopted. I don't do that. I address all of the scriptures when forming my conclusion. What did you do with Acts 13:48 and 1 Peter 2:8 and what Paul wrote about regarding God raising up Pharaoh for the very purpose of displaying His power to the nations. Or before either of the twins were born, before they had done anything either bad or good, God said, Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated? What do you do with that information?
This isn't a matter of Calvinism, but of what the word of God has to say about any given subject.
This isn't a matter of Calvinism, but of what the word of God has to say about any given subject.
Not is not a true comparison regarding this issue. Instead of stating these things, please address the scriptures that I have provided.
God would be completely vindicated if He let everyone in the boat sink and it would not be considered as wrong. But God in His Love and Sovereignty chose to save some, but not all. Those that He did not save are still guilty of their sins.
God would be completely vindicated if He let everyone in the boat sink and it would not be considered as wrong. But God in His Love and Sovereignty chose to save some, but not all. Those that He did not save are still guilty of their sins.
I don't think the bible is that complicated. Meaning one verse over there has to be put on top of the one over here . I see the verses are given within the immediate context. Otherwise we could literally make the bible say anything we want. Each book / letter has a intended Focus, intent, audience and central theme .
///When reading one scripture, we have to bring in the others as well./// We don't read any book like this . It would be gibberish. You would not be able to focus on the context of what you were reading( which I actually think is the issue sometimes in the way some read the bible). Now if you meant that the bible is not fighting itself or contradicting itself, then sure . We check to see why there is an ' apparent ' contradiction and check the context ect .
Hi,
I've just been reading some of the posts above and its a very interesting debate. Some good reading.
But after reading your post I have quoted I realised that Ahwtukee had addressed this point already in post no:330. he quoted scripture here -" And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be." Rev 13:8.
That should hopefully answer your question that it was before even the womb?
I've just been reading some of the posts above and its a very interesting debate. Some good reading.
But after reading your post I have quoted I realised that Ahwtukee had addressed this point already in post no:330. he quoted scripture here -" And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be." Rev 13:8.
That should hopefully answer your question that it was before even the womb?
