Not By Works

Who's said anything about earning salvation? If one thinks their works are earning their salvation than they are outside the bounds of Biblical faith.

You speak of salvation and sanctification as two separate things, yet I don't see such a distinction Biblically as those who are being saved are also being sanctified. All these theological distinctions are artificial constructs of men.

So when you say that one can lose salvation. if they do not do works (james 2) . What is that called?



Your right, I agree

Thats why salvation is eternal. Its not based on us, Its based on the work of God. And he who began will complete. will he not?

I said no such thing, I said one who doesn't have works doesn't have faith. The question of whether one can lose salvation is not one I know the answer to since logically it seems impossible, yet there are passages that certainly seem to imply it and not simply a few. What I warn about is those who think themselves secure and yet have not actually established faith.

I would say He would take mitigating factors into consideration and would give them time to reconsider accordingly, like He did for the Galatians.

I don't see my believing as putting the emphasis on me in salvation because the Bible tells us to believe and to keep believing.

What I warn about is those who think themselves secure and yet have not actually established faith.

The narrow gate is HOW you walk in that faith.

Then again, How many works implies that faith is living or not.

Also take into account Romans 4. Where paul says specifically that Abraham was not found by works period.

And if salvation can be lost. It must be earned, You can not get out of that fact.

If the bible appears to be saying salvation can be lost. Then I suggest we look at it because we have misinterpreted that passage. Because eternal life IS eternal. And if this does not peruade us, then the HS who was given as a pledge UNTIL the day of redemption should!

When do you believe we have salvation, the moment we believe or upon our last breath?

I have been a believer for 38 years.
If I'm totally honest it's been a hard walk.
I ain't no great shapes when it comes to walk.
It's generally been one of fear, condemnation, addictions (side note addictions are a cause of an affect, trust me I know)
Stopped going to church for a long while because of the above.
What didn't help was the condemnation. It came from Satan but also people in the church. They didn't condemn as such but made stupid comments and judgements.

That is what hurt me so bad.

The focus was always on me, from others and myself.

Before this I remember my quite time with God was always started with me confessing my sins, the guilt would be compounded and my grief overtook me and I just cried and stopped my quiet time because I was waiting for the "to late you are out" or stop doing it and you are back in.

I would say at my lowest I would call out to God (and to be honest it took a lot my while to do so).

Then one time God said to me "Bill focus on Jesus and not yourself"
When I did I found comfort in this, a secure place to be in.

One thing I remember is that God asked me to do.
He asked me to structure my prayer time by starting at the beginning of the Lords prayer and pray it through.

All of a sudden I found my quite time started with my focus on God, I went deeper into this model prayer. My whole focus changed.

My sin wasn't the focus until I got to the "forgive me" I would confess them, ask him to reveal those I wasn't aware (and there were lots) I would then thank him I was forgiven and ask that he increases and my flesh decreases.

What a release that was for me.

What really helped as well was the "Thy Kingdom come"

This kingdom is to set the prisoner free (amongst others) as a result he was able to deal with the cause of the affect of my addictions, which has to do "with give sin as he has forgiven my sin"

My walk is still hard because it is a battle, we are in a battlefield. Quite a lot of my stuff is not but some still remain.

I now find myself bringing the kingdom to people who suffer as I did as a result of what I suffered (horrendous stuff).

Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Matthew 6:9-13
9 In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

Amen indeed.

I have been a believer for 38 years.
If I'm totally honest it's been a hard walk.
I ain't no great shapes when it comes to walk.
It's generally been one of fear, condemnation, addictions (side note addictions are a cause of an affect, trust me I know)
Stopped going to church for a long while because of the above.
What didn't help was the condemnation. It came from Satan but also people in the church. They didn't condemn as such but made stupid comments and judgements.

That is what hurt me so bad.

The focus was always on me, from others and myself.

Before this I remember my quite time with God was always started with me confessing my sins, the guilt would be compounded and my grief overtook me and I just cried and stopped my quiet time because I was waiting for the "to late you are out" or stop doing it and you are back in.

I would say at my lowest I would call out to God (and to be honest it took a lot my while to do so).

Then one time God said to me "Bill focus on Jesus and not yourself"
When I did I found comfort in this, a secure place to be in.

One thing I remember is that God asked me to do.
He asked me to structure my prayer time by starting at the beginning of the Lords prayer and pray it through.

All of a sudden I found my quite time started with my focus on God, I went deeper into this model prayer. My whole focus changed.

My sin wasn't the focus until I got to the "forgive me" I would confess them, ask him to reveal those I wasn't aware (and there were lots) I would then thank him I was forgiven and ask that he increases and my flesh decreases.

What a release that was for me.

What really helped as well was the "Thy Kingdom come"

This kingdom is to set the prisoner free (amongst others) as a result he was able to deal with the cause of the affect of my addictions, which has to do "with give sin as he has forgiven my sin"

My walk is still hard because it is a battle, we are in a battlefield. Quite a lot of my stuff is not but some still remain.

I now find myself bringing the kingdom to people who suffer as I did as a result of what I suffered (horrendous stuff).

Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Matthew 6:9-13
9 In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

Amen indeed.

Sorry this is not true, you continually mix and mismatch motifs.

Having entered the through the door/gate we don't continue down it like a tunnel with the light at the end of physical lives.

(John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.)

The question of how many doesn't make much sense, because it can be applied to any defining feature of faith. Such as how much belief is necessary for faith.

Paul's rhetorical use of Abraham doesn't change that Abraham was in fact justified by the work that sprouted from the faith, as James points out.

This is where context matters, because Paul wasn't writing about salvation he was addressing the Roman church which had splintered into a Jewish church and a gentile church so Paul brought justification in to show that neither side had anything to boast against the other.

Again, I don't know what the answer to salvation's loss or gain is all I know is there are a lot of verses that only make sense if understood as implying salvation can be lost. Massaging the plain text so it fits our doctrine isn't letting Scripture speak for itself, its inserting our doctrine into the text.

I see no such distinction in the text, faith is simply faith. Take James as an example, he uses the exact same faith that Paul uses in Romans to demonstrate that it is faith by works that justifies. That is, the faith of Abraham in God's ability to deliver the seed. And James states that it is this faith that justifies. So it seems to me James is explaining what saving faith is.

In this instance Jesus is speaking of entering the kingdom by Him.

In the parable or the strait and wide gate he is not.

Can't help but read James 2:22 before getting to 2:23 which says faith is perfected/completed in works. It's not faith if there are no works demonstrating it.

Actually yes it does make sense, If we are to interpret James correctly. He said NO works.

If NO works = a dead faith

then how many works = a living faith?

Also. After one asks the Lord in faith to save them, Are they still lost until they do a work. Or are they on probation?


Rhetorical?

So Paul making it clear that NO ONE WAS SAVED BY WORKS is just a rhetorical suggestion, Not a literal fact?

oh boy.. You just made things worse



Yes this is where context matters

Paul was directing his words to legalism, To jews who tried to add works to grace, and thinking both were required.

The context you used here, Nope.. Not sure where you get that from but its not true.



If salvation can be lost, IT MUST BE EARNED

also. If salvation can be lost. Alot of scripture is voided out. and the bible contradicts itself. Not to mention. God himself is a liar.

I love this post brother @BillG ...
You show your weakness and how He gives you strength and has given you strength in your most needed times...
Your post is full of comfort from our loving Father , who will never leave us nor forsake us...
The narrow path is hard to walk , yet we walk it through the thistles and thorns , knowing we are being kept by the One who is calling us home ...

Jesus never promised us it would be easy , but He did promise He will always be with us until the end of age...
...xox...

You're twisting James there, simply because James said no works doesn't imply anything about a number of works. James wasn't speculating a number, he was stating a fact. Faith is not faith if there are no works attached to it.

es, Paul was being rhetorical when he used Genesis 15:6 to further his argument. He wasn't saying there are no works that please God, or that there is some mystical separation between faith and works, but that works are not the saving force.

The context I mentioned is the context of Romans, its a letter written to a divided church and is an entire argument intended to heal the divide. It is not a bunch of disjointed theological truths or some diatribe against "legalism". In fact, the only epistle that comes close to that description is Galatians but there the issue was with non-believers coming in and placing yokes on believers.

Again you spin. Scripture isn't voided out, your doctrine is. God's not made a liar, your false promises are proven lies. The whole thing is you've set your doctrine as the deciding factor in what Scripture says rather than taking it for its own contextual usage.