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Not By Works
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I said no such thing, I said one who doesn't have works doesn't have faith. The question of whether one can lose salvation is not one I know the answer to since logically it seems impossible, yet there are passages that certainly seem to imply it and not simply a few. What I warn about is those who think themselves secure and yet have not actually established faith.
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Then again, How many works implies that faith is living or not.
Also take into account Romans 4. Where paul says specifically that Abraham was not found by works period.
And if salvation can be lost. It must be earned, You can not get out of that fact.
If the bible appears to be saying salvation can be lost. Then I suggest we look at it because we have misinterpreted that passage. Because eternal life IS eternal. And if this does not peruade us, then the HS who was given as a pledge UNTIL the day of redemption should!
Also take into account Romans 4. Where paul says specifically that Abraham was not found by works period.
And if salvation can be lost. It must be earned, You can not get out of that fact.
If the bible appears to be saying salvation can be lost. Then I suggest we look at it because we have misinterpreted that passage. Because eternal life IS eternal. And if this does not peruade us, then the HS who was given as a pledge UNTIL the day of redemption should!
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I have been a believer for 38 years.
If I'm totally honest it's been a hard walk.
I ain't no great shapes when it comes to walk.
It's generally been one of fear, condemnation, addictions (side note addictions are a cause of an affect, trust me I know)
Stopped going to church for a long while because of the above.
What didn't help was the condemnation. It came from Satan but also people in the church. They didn't condemn as such but made stupid comments and judgements.
That is what hurt me so bad.
The focus was always on me, from others and myself.
Before this I remember my quite time with God was always started with me confessing my sins, the guilt would be compounded and my grief overtook me and I just cried and stopped my quiet time because I was waiting for the "to late you are out" or stop doing it and you are back in.
I would say at my lowest I would call out to God (and to be honest it took a lot my while to do so).
Then one time God said to me "Bill focus on Jesus and not yourself"
When I did I found comfort in this, a secure place to be in.
One thing I remember is that God asked me to do.
He asked me to structure my prayer time by starting at the beginning of the Lords prayer and pray it through.
All of a sudden I found my quite time started with my focus on God, I went deeper into this model prayer. My whole focus changed.
My sin wasn't the focus until I got to the "forgive me" I would confess them, ask him to reveal those I wasn't aware (and there were lots) I would then thank him I was forgiven and ask that he increases and my flesh decreases.
What a release that was for me.
What really helped as well was the "Thy Kingdom come"
This kingdom is to set the prisoner free (amongst others) as a result he was able to deal with the cause of the affect of my addictions, which has to do "with give sin as he has forgiven my sin"
My walk is still hard because it is a battle, we are in a battlefield. Quite a lot of my stuff is not but some still remain.
I now find myself bringing the kingdom to people who suffer as I did as a result of what I suffered (horrendous stuff).
Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Matthew 6:9-13
9 In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.
Amen indeed.
If I'm totally honest it's been a hard walk.
I ain't no great shapes when it comes to walk.
It's generally been one of fear, condemnation, addictions (side note addictions are a cause of an affect, trust me I know)
Stopped going to church for a long while because of the above.
What didn't help was the condemnation. It came from Satan but also people in the church. They didn't condemn as such but made stupid comments and judgements.
That is what hurt me so bad.
The focus was always on me, from others and myself.
Before this I remember my quite time with God was always started with me confessing my sins, the guilt would be compounded and my grief overtook me and I just cried and stopped my quiet time because I was waiting for the "to late you are out" or stop doing it and you are back in.
I would say at my lowest I would call out to God (and to be honest it took a lot my while to do so).
Then one time God said to me "Bill focus on Jesus and not yourself"
When I did I found comfort in this, a secure place to be in.
One thing I remember is that God asked me to do.
He asked me to structure my prayer time by starting at the beginning of the Lords prayer and pray it through.
All of a sudden I found my quite time started with my focus on God, I went deeper into this model prayer. My whole focus changed.
My sin wasn't the focus until I got to the "forgive me" I would confess them, ask him to reveal those I wasn't aware (and there were lots) I would then thank him I was forgiven and ask that he increases and my flesh decreases.
What a release that was for me.
What really helped as well was the "Thy Kingdom come"
This kingdom is to set the prisoner free (amongst others) as a result he was able to deal with the cause of the affect of my addictions, which has to do "with give sin as he has forgiven my sin"
My walk is still hard because it is a battle, we are in a battlefield. Quite a lot of my stuff is not but some still remain.
I now find myself bringing the kingdom to people who suffer as I did as a result of what I suffered (horrendous stuff).
Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Matthew 6:9-13
9 In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.
Amen indeed.
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Sorry this is not true, you continually mix and mismatch motifs.
Having entered the through the door/gate we don't continue down it like a tunnel with the light at the end of physical lives.
(John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.)
Having entered the through the door/gate we don't continue down it like a tunnel with the light at the end of physical lives.
(John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.)
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The question of how many doesn't make much sense, because it can be applied to any defining feature of faith. Such as how much belief is necessary for faith.
Paul's rhetorical use of Abraham doesn't change that Abraham was in fact justified by the work that sprouted from the faith, as James points out. This is where context matters, because Paul wasn't writing about salvation he was addressing the Roman church which had splintered into a Jewish church and a gentile church so Paul brought justification in to show that neither side had anything to boast against the other.
Again, I don't know what the answer to salvation's loss or gain is all I know is there are a lot of verses that only make sense if understood as implying salvation can be lost. Massaging the plain text so it fits our doctrine isn't letting Scripture speak for itself, its inserting our doctrine into the text.
Paul's rhetorical use of Abraham doesn't change that Abraham was in fact justified by the work that sprouted from the faith, as James points out. This is where context matters, because Paul wasn't writing about salvation he was addressing the Roman church which had splintered into a Jewish church and a gentile church so Paul brought justification in to show that neither side had anything to boast against the other.
Again, I don't know what the answer to salvation's loss or gain is all I know is there are a lot of verses that only make sense if understood as implying salvation can be lost. Massaging the plain text so it fits our doctrine isn't letting Scripture speak for itself, its inserting our doctrine into the text.
Yes!
When do we have marriage? Upon consummation or until a spouse's last breath?
God gave us marriage as a depiction His relationship with His people. In marriage, certain things must be done in order for it to reach its ultimate fulfillment and perfection and be successful.
There's not a warning to us in Scripture we set aside through false doctrines.
When do we have marriage? Upon consummation or until a spouse's last breath?
God gave us marriage as a depiction His relationship with His people. In marriage, certain things must be done in order for it to reach its ultimate fulfillment and perfection and be successful.
There's not a warning to us in Scripture we set aside through false doctrines.
I love this post brother @BillG ...
You show your weakness and how He gives you strength and has given you strength in your most needed times...
Your post is full of comfort from our loving Father , who will never leave us nor forsake us...
The narrow path is hard to walk , yet we walk it through the thistles and thorns , knowing we are being kept by the One who is calling us home ...
Jesus never promised us it would be easy , but He did promise He will always be with us until the end of age...
...xox...
You show your weakness and how He gives you strength and has given you strength in your most needed times...
Your post is full of comfort from our loving Father , who will never leave us nor forsake us...
The narrow path is hard to walk , yet we walk it through the thistles and thorns , knowing we are being kept by the One who is calling us home ...
Jesus never promised us it would be easy , but He did promise He will always be with us until the end of age...
...xox...
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Actually yes it does make sense, If we are to interpret James correctly. He said NO works.
If NO works = a dead faith
then how many works = a living faith?
Also. After one asks the Lord in faith to save them, Are they still lost until they do a work. Or are they on probation?
Rhetorical?
So Paul making it clear that NO ONE WAS SAVED BY WORKS is just a rhetorical suggestion, Not a literal fact?
oh boy.. You just made things worse
Yes this is where context matters
Paul was directing his words to legalism, To jews who tried to add works to grace, and thinking both were required.
The context you used here, Nope.. Not sure where you get that from but its not true.
If salvation can be lost, IT MUST BE EARNED
also. If salvation can be lost. Alot of scripture is voided out. and the bible contradicts itself. Not to mention. God himself is a liar.
If NO works = a dead faith
then how many works = a living faith?
Also. After one asks the Lord in faith to save them, Are they still lost until they do a work. Or are they on probation?
Rhetorical?
So Paul making it clear that NO ONE WAS SAVED BY WORKS is just a rhetorical suggestion, Not a literal fact?
oh boy.. You just made things worse
Yes this is where context matters
Paul was directing his words to legalism, To jews who tried to add works to grace, and thinking both were required.
The context you used here, Nope.. Not sure where you get that from but its not true.
If salvation can be lost, IT MUST BE EARNED
also. If salvation can be lost. Alot of scripture is voided out. and the bible contradicts itself. Not to mention. God himself is a liar.
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repost
Paul is arguing against legalism
James is arguing against licentiousness
These contexts must be applied or else you will miss the meaning of what each author is trying to present
Paul, In arguing against a work for maintain salvation states if Abraham was found by works, He has something to boast. That abraham was called righteous because of his faith, Not because of his work. If he had to work for it, It would be debt, not grace,
James, In going against the Gnostic easy believing I can say a sinners prayer and I am magically saved, By explaining a gospel truth, That those who have true saving faith, The faith Abraham had when God declared him righteous, Before he did one work (saved by faith alone) Justified his faith was true, living and real. Because true faith works. Where mere belief will not
Paul is arguing against legalism
James is arguing against licentiousness
These contexts must be applied or else you will miss the meaning of what each author is trying to present
Paul, In arguing against a work for maintain salvation states if Abraham was found by works, He has something to boast. That abraham was called righteous because of his faith, Not because of his work. If he had to work for it, It would be debt, not grace,
James, In going against the Gnostic easy believing I can say a sinners prayer and I am magically saved, By explaining a gospel truth, That those who have true saving faith, The faith Abraham had when God declared him righteous, Before he did one work (saved by faith alone) Justified his faith was true, living and real. Because true faith works. Where mere belief will not
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The motifs are the same, spoken of in a different manner.
(Mat 7:14 KJV) Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Life and pasture are the same motif, once through the gate we have life, once through the door we have pasture. All are motifs of the holy spirit (living waters) (tree of life) (eternal life)
(Mat 7:14 KJV) Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Life and pasture are the same motif, once through the gate we have life, once through the door we have pasture. All are motifs of the holy spirit (living waters) (tree of life) (eternal life)
You're twisting James there, simply because James said no works doesn't imply anything about a number of works. James wasn't speculating a number, he was stating a fact. Faith is not faith if there are no works attached to it.
Yes, Paul was being rhetorical when he used Genesis 15:6 to further his argument. He wasn't saying there are no works that please God, or that there is some mystical separation between faith and works, but that works are not the saving force.
The context I mentioned is the context of Romans, its a letter written to a divided church and is an entire argument intended to heal the divide. It is not a bunch of disjointed theological truths or some diatribe against "legalism". In fact, the only epistle that comes close to that description is Galatians but there the issue was with non-believers coming in and placing yokes on believers.
Again you spin. Scripture isn't voided out, your doctrine is. God's not made a liar, your false promises are proven lies. The whole thing is you've set your doctrine as the deciding factor in what Scripture says rather than taking it for its own contextual usage.
Yes, Paul was being rhetorical when he used Genesis 15:6 to further his argument. He wasn't saying there are no works that please God, or that there is some mystical separation between faith and works, but that works are not the saving force.
The context I mentioned is the context of Romans, its a letter written to a divided church and is an entire argument intended to heal the divide. It is not a bunch of disjointed theological truths or some diatribe against "legalism". In fact, the only epistle that comes close to that description is Galatians but there the issue was with non-believers coming in and placing yokes on believers.
Again you spin. Scripture isn't voided out, your doctrine is. God's not made a liar, your false promises are proven lies. The whole thing is you've set your doctrine as the deciding factor in what Scripture says rather than taking it for its own contextual usage.
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Yes my precious sister, Jesus never promised it would be easy but he did promise he would be with us during our trials and walk with us in it.
I remember once when I was having counseling by a couple in the church. They were praying for me, they asked me what was going through my mind whilst they prayed.
I said "I imagine a picture of me sat in a bin this bin is full of s**t and that's my life"
They asked me "What do you think Jesus would do to help you whilst in this bin?
I said "Hold his hand out and ask me to grab it and then pull me out"
They said "No, Jesus would ask you to move over, get in the bin with you and then walk out of the bin with you and as you walk together s**t you are covered in will start to be cleaned off you"
Amazing indeed.
I remember once when I was having counseling by a couple in the church. They were praying for me, they asked me what was going through my mind whilst they prayed.
I said "I imagine a picture of me sat in a bin this bin is full of s**t and that's my life"
They asked me "What do you think Jesus would do to help you whilst in this bin?
I said "Hold his hand out and ask me to grab it and then pull me out"
They said "No, Jesus would ask you to move over, get in the bin with you and then walk out of the bin with you and as you walk together s**t you are covered in will start to be cleaned off you"
Amazing indeed.
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But if your going to use it to prove salvation can be lost and must be earned by works by saying works are REQUIRED.
then you must give a number,
I am not spinning, I am calling it for what it is. Your the one spinning my friend.
Paul said as a FACT that we are saved eternally or made righteous not because as he said later, "of any Good deed we have done (works) (titus 3) but because we had faith in Gods word
But FAITH is never alone. So if one CLAIMS to have faith, But they look inside, and realize they really have no works. They they shoudl consider their faith dead. Which is no faith at all.
And James used abraham as an example. Abraham PROVED his faith was real. because his faith did not sit idle and do NOTHING, It worked.
We are saved at the moment of faith.. People have asked you multiple times if you believed this, Why will you not answer them?
then you must give a number,
I am not spinning, I am calling it for what it is. Your the one spinning my friend.
Paul said as a FACT that we are saved eternally or made righteous not because as he said later, "of any Good deed we have done (works) (titus 3) but because we had faith in Gods word
But FAITH is never alone. So if one CLAIMS to have faith, But they look inside, and realize they really have no works. They they shoudl consider their faith dead. Which is no faith at all.
And James used abraham as an example. Abraham PROVED his faith was real. because his faith did not sit idle and do NOTHING, It worked.
We are saved at the moment of faith.. People have asked you multiple times if you believed this, Why will you not answer them?