Not By Works

key word- ole ( old).
same people have something shown or proven to them, same people continue to demand proof or ineterpertation of same thing they have been shown …..

Read carefully so you don't have to wonder incorrectly about my position:

The justified person is indeed very much saved at the moment of justification/ sanctification. The question is whether or not they will continue in that justification/ sanctification in order to continue to be saved and prepared to meet Jesus when He comes back.

To my knowledge, the only thing you disagree with me about is whether or not a justified person can go back to unbelief. Since Hebrews 10:29 can't be a willfully sinning unbeliever made clean by the blood of Christ for contact with the church (no such person exists), it has to be talking about the person who was once justified by the blood Christ but who now tramples on that blood in unbelief.

Does this include having to trust in Christ?

We certainly disagree here and I already covered this multiple times.

I gave you the link that shows 'become' is in the subjunctive mood, the mood of uncertainty. That means 'might' be made heirs, not 'definitely' made heirs. What does your doctrine do with that?

"7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life." - Titus 3:7

Definition of "Subjunctive"
Is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/tit/3/1/t_conc_1132007

I figger if you're going to use Romans 8:30 to show the certainty of the justified being saved you should have some explanation for this verse where the uncertainty of the justified being saved is shared by Paul. I think I know what you'll do with it. But I will let you go there first.

It became the most snake filled place ever. Moderators didn't help either

The "church" is the Body of Christ. Not a building, temple, etc. The issue is that God does the saving, not us. Genuine faith? God decides that as well. Only God knows the "heart" of man. I go by His word that if I believe in Him and His work on the Cross unto salvation, I am saved. Remain saved? Once saved always saved.

I definitely resist such a legalistic understanding of that verse. Just because they don't handle the verse properly doesn't mean we shouldn't seek to understand the role of works in salvation. Not justification (Paul's justification). We know works play no role whatsoever in that.

"9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved." - Romans 10:9-10

What we need to do is understand the relationship between believing and justification, and the relationship between doing something and salvation. Not in a 'works earn salvation' kind of way, because we both know that is quite clearly and thoroughly debunked in scripture. Other scriptures make this distinction too. The church has thrown the baby out with the bathwater regarding the issue of works and salvation. See, you came from the troubled Catholic Church to an equally troubled Protestant church. We're just deeply troubled in a different way.

I wonder too that Judges1318, does not seem to mind that his interpretation, creates Contradictions. I know for a fact, that Mormons are taught the Bible is full of Contradictions. So could Judges1318 be a MORMON ? ? ?

I confronted Mormons Missionaries in my Driveway once, and after the second time I said that contradicts this Verse, and quoted it. One of the Two Missionaries interjected, "I do not see what that matters, because the BIBLE is full of contradictions."

The a couple minutes later I discovered by accident the SURE FIRED WAY to get rid of Mormon Missionaries.

I said, "There is only one thing about Joseph Smith's teachings that I object to, IF YOU DIE BELIEVING IT, YOU ARE CERTAINLY GOING TO GO TO HELL." INSTANTLY, both of them got on their Bicycles, one rode as fast as he could out of the Driveway, the other rode round and round me about 4 times, SHOUTING over and over again: "I can't believe you just pronounced us to Hell! I can't believe you just pronounced us to Hell! I can't believe you just pronounced us to Hell!" And he too rode out of the driveway as fast as he could, and turned towards the Post Office where I worked. You see, I had a Mormon Postmaster, and they tried to get me fired. John my Postmaster said he could not do that. SO John, called the Prison were I was a Volunteer Chaplain, and tried to get me FIRED from that position. The Head CHAPLAIN, then called me Laughing all the time, and told me what had just happened.

To be "in the know" you have to take a solemn oath of secrecy .... I would not recommend it for you.

Ignorance is bliss...I will carry the burden for all of us.

THE ENTIRE PURPOSE FOR THE LAW, CAN BE SUMMED UP IN THESE VERSES:

Romans 7:7 (HCSB)
7 What should we say then? Is the law sin? Absolutely not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin if it were not for the law. For example, I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, Do not covet.

Romans 3:20 (HCSB)
20 For no one will be justified in His sight by the works of the law, because the knowledge of sin ⌊comes⌋ through the law.


The LAW was NEVER a means by which we could make yourselves RIGHTEOUS in GOD's sight. IT WAS ALWAYS SO HIGH OF A STANDARD, THAT WE WOULD FIND IT IMPOSSIBLE TO KEEP IT PERFECTLY, THEREBY, DRIVING US TO OUR KNEES SEEKING A MESSIAH TO SAVE US.


James 2:10 (HCSB)
10 For whoever keeps the entire law, yet fails in one point, is guilty of ⌊breaking it⌋ all.


Old Testament Saints were those who BELIEVED that God would send a MESSIAH to pay for their SINS.

New Testament Saints are those who BELIEVE that God DID send a MESSIAH to pay for our SINS.

IT IS THE SAME AS ABRAHAM'S FAITH.

NEVER was the Law a system where we out of our own strength could make ourselves Right with GOD.

Both Groups of SAINTS were SAVED do GOD's Mercy and Grace, though a FAITH that was not of ourselves.

Isaiah 1:13-18 (HCSB)
13 Stop bringing useless offerings. ⌊Your⌋ incense is detestable to Me. New Moons and Sabbaths, and the calling of solemn assemblies— I cannot stand iniquity with a festival.
14 I hate your New Moons and prescribed festivals. They have become a burden to Me; I am tired of putting up with ⌊them⌋.
15 When you lift up your hands ⌊in prayer⌋, I will refuse to look at you; even if you offer countless prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood.
16 “Wash yourselves. Cleanse yourselves. Remove your evil deeds from My sight. Stop doing evil.
17 Learn to do what is good. Seek justice. Correct the oppressor. Defend the rights of the fatherless. Plead the widow’s cause.
18 “Come, let us discuss this,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they will be as white as snow; though they are as red as crimson, they will be like wool.


The JEWS LOWERED the LAW OF GOD, to where they COULD KEEP IT THEMSELVES, and thought they were RIGHT WITH GOD, Because they Could KEEP the Lowered Standard ritualistically, they stopped SEEKING a MESSIAH who could DO IT ALL.

Now we have another Generation, that have Stopped SEEKING a MESSIAH who could DO IT ALL, and think their LOWERED STANDARD, of KEEPING the LAW makes themselves, out of their own efforts, RIGHT WITH GOD. Anytime your WORKS have a MOTIVE of improving your SALVATION, IT IS FOOLISHNESS. You need to become 100% dependent on HIS MERCY and GRACE.

If you want your SINS washed as white as snow, REPENT, and stop thinking your deeds have made you right with GOD, and LEARN to rely on what JESUS DID ON THE CROSS. HIS MERCY, and HIS GRACE, will keep, your Sins already washed as White as SNOW. Then you will be free indeed, and then you can use that freedom to agapē LOVE GOD by striving to become Obedient out of PURE LOVE.

Until you do, you are in the same sinking ship as the JEWS that GOD described in Isaiah 1:13-18

This is nonsense...however the problems with conditional salvation are definitely true and the list is endless.

The main ones being conditional salvation creates an Alternate Jesus who is powerless, untrustworthy, does not bequeath salvation as gift but as a reward and does not finish what he starts.

I was thinking the same.

Amen sis, well said.

Can I ask a question.....are you dense or just wilfully obstinate to the truth?

What part of FINISH and COMPLETE do you not understand.....?

JESUS finishes and completes FAITH IN US PAL....and I for one am sick to death of your devaluation of JESUS and FAITH by your self serving, self sustained satanic faith NOT given in scripture.....!

Take your false view up with those inspired to pen the scriptures

If we become faithless, he abides faithful because he cannot deny himself.

What you peddle is not of God pal....make no mistake......!

You don't even understand biblical faith, much less Greek verb tense....you may be able to fool a few here, but anyone with an ounce of understanding can see through your religious psycho babble....

This is funny. Let's check who asked the question from our convo.

There goes my question to you and let's see your presumptuous reply. And here you are now with this...

"please note when someone asks you a question. Don’t demand they answer you when you have yet answered them."

I'm not gonna buy this. Thanks anyway.

Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves. Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. Share with the Lord’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality. Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited. Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Romans 12:9‭-‬21 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/rom.12.9-21.NIV