Can We Eliminate the Divide Between Calvinism and Arminianism?

And you should know (as well as anyone else) that that was A DODGE. So they used the word "fore-ordained", but as far as Calvinists are concerned there is no difference between predestined and foreordained. Honesty should have required the same word in both cases. But then Reformed Theology would have to admit that God arbitrarily chooses some for salvation and others for damnation.

He does draw, and he does teach, but we still have to chose, not everyone will say yes, Jesus showed how true this is when he spoke concerning jerusalem.

Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

That's the typical Calvinist response when they know that their teachings are false and unbiblical and have been exposed as such.

"You don't understand" is actually a Gnostic attitude, since only the Gnostics had deeper, *esoteric* knowledge about what was *hidden* in Scripture.

I have not received a response from a calvanist telling me what criteria God uses to decide if He is going to force someone to believe and be saved and block others from believing and being saved...

Seems calvanists don't want to answer my question..

6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

@Angela53510 @Sackcloth-N-Ashes @preacher4truth @allcalvinists

I got a question: WHY did Jesus speak in parables and say the mysteries of the kingdom was given to you (disciples) and then goes on to say that it is that way SO THAT they (the outsiders) wont repent and be forgiven?

That doesnt match with total depravity at all. They should already be unwilling to repent because they arent the elect or regenerated?

@Angela53510 @Sackcloth-N-Ashes @preacher4truth @allcalvinists

I got a question: WHY did Jesus speak in parables and say the mysteries of the kingdom was given to you (disciples) and then goes on to say that it is that way SO THAT they (the outsiders) wont repent and be forgiven?

That doesnt match with total depravity at all. They should already be unwilling to repent because they arent the elect or regenerated?

Jesus through the signified language of parables, without parables he spoke not to the multitude. The multitude is everyone that could hear and in doing so hid the spiritual unseen understanding. If any curse, the curse of unbelief.(no faith)

Matthew 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Mark 4:11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Hi, Everyone -

I proffer that the answer to the question I posed is "yes", and the reason I decided to join this Christian chat service is to get your reaction to my approach on this subject. Perhaps, some will respond to my approach with a convincing and compelling rebuttal to demonstrate the ways in which my approach is flawed.

In the world of physics there are two irreconcilable disciplines: "quantum mechanics" and "relativity". The rules found in quantum mechanics do not apply in relativity, and, likewise, the rules found in relativity do not apply to quantum mechanics. This divide has led scientists to attempt to define a theory that unifies these two disciplines . Despite being unsuccessful for decades, the effort to unite the two approaches continues today.

In light of Scripture, it would seem Christians would have within themselves a similar desire to unite those who adhere to either of these theological traditions. For example, Jesus prayed in John 17 the following:

I do not pray for these [Jesus' 11 disciples] alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

This text shows that our unity is not only Jesus' desire, but has two additional services: to be a testimony to non-believers that our Father did send Jesus and that our Father loves us just as He loved Jesus. Consequently, any inducement to separate ourselves from each other on the basis of man-made theological traditions (i.e., Calvinism, and Arminianism) are to be assiduously rejected.

From my experience, Christians who are expanding their understanding of Christendom are told that Christendom is split into two camps: Calvinist and Arminian; no other options are mentioned. Because of taking debate classes during my undergraduate training, I almost immediately thought to myself that the potential exists for the two-camp presentation of Christendom to be a false dilemma, and, based on my study of Scripture, it is that. I’d like to share with you below a paper I wrote in 2018 that employs an interpretive framework that demonstrates the two-camp narrative to be false thereby destroying the separation between these two camps. If you can demonstrate how the paper fails to achieve this objective, then I’d like you to tell me. Thanks!


My Perspective on Arminianism and Calvinism

Both Arminianism and Calvinism are wrong in their explanations of how the salvation process works. These theological traditions neither recognize nor address the overarching role Isaiah’s curse had in producing significant differences in the way Jews and Gentiles responded to the Gospel as overwhelmingly demonstrated in Scripture. Consequently, both of these traditions are defective, unreliable, inaccurate, and unbiblical.


A Simple Salvation Process for All

The salvation process is simple:

If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Romans 10:9-13).

Notice in Romans 11:5-10 how this simple process contains a prerequisite for the Jews - specifically, “election”. The election prerequisite is strictly for and to Jews; Scripture never describes Gentiles as having this prerequisite. This prerequisite is necessary because the Jews were handicapped by a curse that prevented them from believing the Gospel.


Isaiah’s Curse

The Jews were cursed through Isaiah, and this curse formed the basis for their needing to be elected by God unto salvation:

And He said, “Go, and tell this people:
‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’

“Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed” (Isaiah 6:9-10).

The above curse was quoted by Jesus when describing the Jewish condition to His disciples in Matthew 13:10-17. Consequently, the curse significantly impacted the way in which Jesus communicated to the Jews: in parables only. In addition, the same curse was quoted by Paul when contrasting the Jewish and Gentile responses to the Gospel in Acts 28:17-29. Consequently, the curse rendered all Jews as damned and bereft of salvation unless God chose to break the curse on those Jews He chose for salvation, per Romans 11:5-10. Even the prophets were blinded, according to Isaiah 29:10. Fortunately, the curse had an expiration date (Isaiah 6:11-13) and expired upon the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.


The Electoral Process that Breaks Isaiah’s Curse on the Jews

In order for Isaiah’s curse on the Jews to be broken so they could be saved, God chose (or, elected) which of the Jews to save:

I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not … at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace … What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded (Romans 11:1-7).

In the

In conclusion, the salvation process described in Scripture is more complex than either of the descriptions proffered by Arminianism and Calvinism. Consequently, both traditions are inharmonious with Scripture and, thus, defective. A candid review of God’s word reveals that a prerequisite for salvation existed for Jews prior to the expiration of Isaiah’s curse, and this prerequisite was discontinued after Isaiah’s curse expired in AD 70. Therefore, Jews were elected for salvation prior to the curse’s expiration and were given free will in choosing salvation after the curse’s expiration. Gentiles have never had this experience. Instead, Gentiles have always enjoyed free will in their salvation experience.

It's as simple and complicated as this!
You get a cold! Yer eyes and nose are running like a leaky faucet!
Do ya ask God why this is so? Or, do ya run to Walgreens and stock up on Alka Seltzer + cold?

You've been shown numerous times, yet you go into one of your hissy fits when shown and don't want to talk any more, call names, whine, falsely accuse, cry &c.

It is interesting to watch you pretend though.

Here's betting you'll do it again.

6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

The one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her but they were not willing...... not being drawn by the father through the word, as it is written. The ones that are made willing do come as the father draws them.

The drawing is the teaching of the Spirit of truth. No man can come, as in impossible, unless God does the first work in us .Those who do come as a result of His drawing they in no wise could he cast out.

Can a person say yes to God if it is not the work of God working in them to both will and do his good pleasure? Does he need our confirmation to give us his understanding? That would seem to turn things upside down. The mistake a natural unconverted Jew used using the oral traditions of the fathers to take away the understanding of the word of God..

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

You were unwilling,

Proves beyond a doubt that not all god calls or draws to himself will say yes. As paul said in romans one, itis not becausethey could not find truth or understand it. But that they as paul said in romans 1....

1. Althoought they KNEW God they did not worship him
2. Professed to be wise, but became fools
3. Did not RETAIN God in their minds.
4. KNEW the righteous judgment, but did not like it.. (this explains why the world hates the truth, BECAUSE THEY KNOW IT IS TRUE, and it CONVICTS THEM, so they must hide it deep in their hearts so it can not be exposed (walk away from the light)

The reason they have no excuse is be use they KNOW IT, they just DENY IT.

When God draws people one of three things generally happen
1. They will get angry (like the jews, killing the people God is trying to draw them with) thus hardening their hearts even more
2. Are drawn to God. But never really repent. End up in some form of legalistic religious system. Which again, Is angered by those sent by God to speak real truth, and judges the first group
3. People are drawn to God. Eventually come to true repentance and faith, and are given the fight to become children of God by recieving Gods gift.

Ephesians 1:3-6
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


"Gentiles" have been chosen by God to be in Christ, predestinated to be adopted as Children by Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:11-18
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

There is One Way for the Jew and the Gentile.

Romans 3:9-18
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.


This applies to both Jews and Gentiles.

To say some of the scripture applies only to Jews and some only applies to Gentiles is a mistake.

It takes a lot of study to find this out.

Adams sin had serious consequences. All died in Adam and were estranged from God.

[Predestination is used positively for the sanctification of the elect.
Sounds good.]
God did not have to elect any, but in His Perfect wisdom He elected all He could righteously save.
[Now, what about the other poor blokes who were NOT elected?
Are they the reprobates?]
Keep in mind, any non elect love sin and hate God and His word. from the 1689 confession of faith.

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )



[What happens to them?]
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.



8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


[WHY are they found outside Christ?]
Those who love sin have no desire to repent and trust Him,ever.