Can We Eliminate the Divide Between Calvinism and Arminianism?

[Grandpa]

Is not the above scripture after the death of the testator? The New Testament is in force both for the Jew and the Gentile.

Continue in Romans 3...

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

God’s righteousness is revealed through the faith of Christ and is unto all and upon all them that believe.

Yes.

This is my point to the OP.

It is no more difficult for the Jew than the Gentile.

There is none righteous, not one.

Romans 3:10-16
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.



There is One Way to God the Father and that is through the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Magenta]

When it says 1. fell in Adam 2. God decreed all which should come to pass.

I believe Adam didnt have a sinful nature or original sin or any of that, he has untainted nature and will. Since all God created was "good" He says. The sin nature only came AFTER the fall, otherwise God created something "ungood" and is the reason Adam sinned!

So do the people who wrote the confession believe God decreed the fall of Adam? Or does the decreeing only start AFTER the fall? Obviously these guys are long gone so we cant go inside their minds, but do we got something to give us a clue?

I agree that God saw creation as good, including man, and creation was even called very good after Eve was made Some people say that Adam was perfect, though, and I must disagree with that (I realize you are not saying that). We are perfected in Christ, Who was purposed from before the foundation of the world. Perhaps that is the clue you are looking for: The Tree of Life

PS~ please excuse me for just jumping in there

 

[Grandpa]

I agree that God saw creation as good, including man, and creation was even called very good after Eve was made Some people say that Adam was perfect, though, and I must disagree with that (I realize you are not saying that). We are perfected in Christ, Who was purposed from before the foundation of the world. Perhaps that is the clue you are looking for: The Tree of Life

Yes.

If Adam were perfect then Christ would have been Plan B.

We read in the bible that Christ was the Plan from the very beginning. The Lord Jesus Christ wasn't a new plan that God needed to come up with because all His other Plans had failed.

There are actually denominations that believe that Gods Plan for mankind failed and God had to come up with a new plan after that failure.

I went to a church that taught this out of an actual work book. Like you would have in elementary school.

I obviously disagreed with it....

 

[Magenta]

Molinists argue that God perfectly accomplishes his will in the lives of genuinely free creatures through the use of His omniscience. I have not looked into Molinism very extensively, but they seem to have a balanced approach with some very learned adherents.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Although they knew about Him in unbelief they glorified Him not as God . Therefore in their foolish hearts (no god) they became vain in their imagination (no heart) as those who crucify Christ over and over. Never coming to salvation.

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

God does not draw people to get angry.

Drawing them is causing them to repent "hear God".
People are drawn to Go as the call to true repentance by a work of Christ faith that does work in the believer to both will and perform His good pleasure.. Nothing gets attributed to the flesh of man. God must first give mankind faith the living hope that works in us to the end.. [/QUOTE]

Although they knew about Him in unbelief they glorified Him not as God . Therefore in their foolish hearts (no god) they became vain in their imagination (no heart) as those who crucify Christ over and over. Never coming to salvation.

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

God does not draw people to get angry.
Drawing them is causing them to repent "hear God".
People are drawn to Go as the call to true repentance by a work of Christ faith that does work in the believer to both will and perform His good pleasure.. Nothing gets attributed to the flesh of man. God must first give mankind faith the living hope that works in us to the end..

God spent centuries trying to draw Israel to himself

But they were not willing (this was Jesus words not mine)

Of course God does not draw people to make them angry, But that was not what I said, Maybe next time, actually read what I said?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ephesians 1:3-6
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


"Gentiles" have been chosen by God to be in Christ, predestinated to be adopted as Children by Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:11-18
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

There is One Way for the Jew and the Gentile.

Romans 3:9-18
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.


This applies to both Jews and Gentiles.

To say some of the scripture applies only to Jews and some only applies to Gentiles is a mistake.

It takes a lot of study to find this out.

Amen, There is one gospel for all. Always has been!!

 

[Hevosmies]

Molinists argue that God perfectly accomplishes his will in the lives of genuinely free creatures through the use of His omniscience. I have not looked into Molinism very extensively, but they seem to have a balanced approach with some very learned adherents.

I tried to look up molinism, but i cant understand its definition. Thats how you know its too complicated for me lol

 

[NayborBear]

If I must say so, even though your answers are quite inept, you sure are hilarious and fun to dialogue with!

One can only take what another who has not been in such an Holy Presence, that would render one as a dead man, with such little "salt", that words of scoffing and mockery? That the "effect and efforts", are so negligible, as to be of non-effect!

Having said that? I do SO look forwards in seeing that which you have to "say," or add!

 

[NayborBear]

Hi, Everyone -

I wholeheartedly appreciate all of your responses to my original post (OP).

At this point the OP stands as valid, because there hasn't been a convincing and compelling rebuttal given. Do any of you know of a theologian that would be willing to review my argument? Perhaps, I can get a cogent rebuttal that would demonstrate any shortcomings on my part. Thanks in advance.

Perhaps, in your eyes, or the "eyes of men", or supposed "men of God" are concerned.

But? There can NOT be any RECONCILIATION betweenst these 2 sides!

Where the one side wishes to go, where "free will" is not acceptable?

While the other side is where "free will" doesn't EXIST!

In your theory? NO FLESH WILL BE SAVED!

 

[xjohnson]

Perhaps, in your eyes, or the "eyes of men", or supposed "men of God" are concerned.

But? There can NOT be any RECONCILIATION betweenst these 2 sides!

Where the one side wishes to go, where "free will" is not acceptable?

While the other side is where "free will" doesn't EXIST!

In your theory? NO FLESH WILL BE SAVED!

@NayborBear

Hi, NayborBear -

Thanks for your reply!

Okay ... so you brought up the subject of free will. If I am not mistaken the Calvinist perspective is that the lack of "free will" is a secondary effect of election. Is this correct? Thanks in advance.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I tried to look up molinism, but i cant understand its definition. Thats how you know its too complicated for me lol

Here the the definition of Molinism from Theopedia:

Molinism is an attempt to provide a solution to the classic philosophical problems associated with God's providence, foreknowledge and the freedom of humanity. This view may be traced to the 16th century Jesuit theologian Luis de Molina - hence, the name Molinism. Specifically, it seeks to maintain a strong view of God's sovereignty over creation while at the same time preserving the belief that human beings have self-determined freedom, or libertarian free will... Libertarian free will means that our choices are free from the determination or constraints of human nature and free from any predetermination by God.

So essentially what it means is that God's absolute sovereignty is not diminished by man's free will. What everyone needs to see is that even though all human beings have a sin nature, all are not continuously evil and wicked, and everyone has a conscience, which is also exercised by many who are not saved (See Romans 2). But the power of the Gospel and the convicting and convincing power of the Holy Spirit are sufficient to bring men to Christ without FIRST regenerating them (as falsely taught by Calvinists).

 

[Hevosmies]

Here the the definition of Molinism from Theopedia:

Molinism is an attempt to provide a solution to the classic philosophical problems associated with God's providence, foreknowledge and the freedom of humanity. This view may be traced to the 16th century Jesuit theologian Luis de Molina - hence, the name Molinism. Specifically, it seeks to maintain a strong view of God's sovereignty over creation while at the same time preserving the belief that human beings have self-determined freedom, or libertarian free will... Libertarian free will means that our choices are free from the determination or constraints of human nature and free from any predetermination by God.

So essentially what it means is that God's absolute sovereignty is not diminished by man's free will. What everyone needs to see is that even though all human beings have a sin nature, all are not continuously evil and wicked, and everyone has a conscience, which is also exercised by many who are not saved (See Romans 2). But the power of the Gospel and the convicting and convincing power of the Holy Spirit are sufficient to bring men to Christ without FIRST regenerating them (as falsely taught by Calvinists).

Very interesting. It seems that this is a "compromise" between arminianism and calvinism, free will and predestination. HOWEVER: One word that has me extremely worried is......... "JESUIT theologian"!!!

 

[ForestGreenCook]

@NayborBear

Hi, NayborBear -

Thanks for your reply!

Okay ... so you brought up the subject of free will. If I am not mistaken the Calvinist perspective is that the lack of "free will" is a secondary effect of election. Is this correct? Thanks in advance.

God has given man a free will to make choices as how man wants to live his life here on earth, but the choice of a man's eternal life is made by Gods sovereign will, without the choice of man.

 

[NayborBear]

@NayborBear

Hi, NayborBear -

Thanks for your reply!

Okay ... so you brought up the subject of free will. If I am not mistaken the Calvinist perspective is that the lack of "free will" is a secondary effect of election. Is this correct? Thanks in advance.

Fact actually Johnson? "Free will?" Is not in the "election process" at all! The ONLY time, or instances when "free will" comes into play? Is when the "believer" chooses to resist God's IRRESISTIBLE Grace TOWARDS

 

[NayborBear]

Fact actually Johnson? "Free will?" Is not in the "election process" at all! The ONLY time, or instances when "free will" comes into play? Is when the "believer" chooses to resist God's IRRESISTIBLE Grace TOWARDS

NOOOOOO! (I'll tell ya Johnson?....being technologically challenged is not fun! ) Anyway! Where was I?


Is when the "believer" chooses to resist God's IRRESISTIBLE Grace TOWARDS the KEEPING of one's election ASSURED!

For ya see Johnson? It is not until an Arminian "takes the bull by the horns", so to speak, that He/she even has the "cognizance" of how God's grace has "arranged" a non believer's life's situation, up to the point of converting to Christ! And, the convert himself may not realize this, until, they are on their death bed. Or? Like Jonah, when he was drowning, before he got swallered up by the big fish? That, it was not IN FACT, he who chose to obey! But, rather God's taking away any other avenue of RESISTING!....Or DEATH! Some? Choose death!
Unfortunately, for the vast majority of Arminians? This is where they cease believing, and continue their resisting!
Yet? in the "converted?" Tis not "death of the soul!" But, "IMPRISONED" parts, and portions of the converteds' "spirit!" And, where the "assurance of election", is diminished. Or, added unto one as righteousness, Accordingly! Our Heavenly Father is VERY fair and JUST, and very slow to anger! He's also, very Jealous! And not AFRAID at all, in correcting, or chastising His children! When, and where they needs it!
This goes DOUBLE (and more), for His ELECT! (don't ask me how I know that )

 

[NayborBear]

God has given man a free will to make choices as how man wants to live his life here on earth, but the choice of a man's eternal life is made by Gods sovereign will, without the choice of man.

Like I just explained to Mr. Johnson? God's Irresistible Grace, can arrange a man's "life situation", into giving cause for a man to (falsely) believe, he made the "choice" of his OWN free will!

 

[Nehemiah6]

Very interesting. It seems that this is a "compromise" between arminianism and calvinism, free will and predestination. HOWEVER: One word that has me extremely worried is......... "JESUIT theologian"!!!

It does not mean Jesuits can't get some things right.

 

[Iconoclast]

Every one of these Scriptures is a MISAPPLICATION since they were all addressed to Israel, not to Calvinists. And the sad thing is that Israel -- chosen by God to be a special people unto Himself -- REJECTED the Lord Jesus Christ and cried "Crucify him, Crucify him".

Now it Five Point Calvinism had any truth to it, every one of the elect nation of Israel would also be the elect, saved by irresistible grace and included in Limited Atonement. Do you see the irony of your post?

No, I do not see the irony because the Apostle Paul explained it as clear as can be, watch;

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

 

[Iconoclast]

Adstar,

[This scripture is from the OLD Testament dealing with Why God chose the Jewish people to be the vessel to reveal His will through..]
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

[It does not state anything about being saved and being damned and why God forces one degenerate human being to be saved and another equally degenerate person to be blocked from salvation...]

God made a Covenant with them. So those saved would be according to the Covenant. Not everyone in the nation was in the Covenant.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

 

[Iconoclast]

"Hevosmies,

[When it says 1. fell in Adam 2. God decreed all which should come to pass.

I believe Adam didnt have a sinful nature or original sin or any of that, he has untainted nature and will. Since all God created was "good" He says. The sin nature only came AFTER the fall, otherwise God created something "ungood" and is the reason Adam sinned!]
correct
eccl 7:29;29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

[So do the people who wrote the confession believe God decreed the fall of Adam? Or does the decreeing only start AFTER the fall?]

The fall was decreed before it took place..Jesus is said to be the lamb slain from before the world was.

[Obviously these guys are long gone so we cant go inside their minds, but do we got something to give us a clue?]
Jonathan Edwards wrote The History of the work of redemption available online