Can We Eliminate the Divide Between Calvinism and Arminianism?

[garee]

Drawing them is causing them to repent "hear God".
People are drawn to Go as the call to true repentance by a work of Christ faith that does work in the believer to both will and perform His good pleasure.. Nothing gets attributed to the flesh of man. God must first give mankind faith the living hope that works in us to the end..

God spent centuries trying to draw Israel to himself

But they were not willing (this was Jesus words not mine)

Of course God does not draw people to make them angry, But that was not what I said, Maybe next time, actually read what I said?[/QUOTE]

I would think God wills and does his good pleasure not tries. Let there be and there was.

That particular Israel as a outward Jew according to the flesh was not made or newly created by the will of God who is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul desires. (Job 23) Or described in the same way in Philippian 2:13 it is God who works in us yoked with us to both will and perform his good pleasure

No man could come and therefore no man has come unless the father had first enabled them..... giving them the gift of faith, previously having none..

All of Israel is not the bride of Christ which God renamed "Christians" in Acts. God is not to weak to draw us and not cast us out but finishing the work he has began in us. . I beleive if he has begun the good work of His faith as it is written in us, he will finish it . Philippians 1;6

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

 

[garee]

@NayborBear

Hi, NayborBear -

Thanks for your reply!

Okay ... so you brought up the subject of free will. If I am not mistaken the Calvinist perspective is that the lack of "free will" is a secondary effect of election. Is this correct? Thanks in advance.

God's free will is the primary effect of salvation or election.

 

[NayborBear]

God's free will is the primary effect of salvation or election.

I know right? Sometimes? I have to "curb" a post when the poster's mind is blown, because God DOES do, whatever His good pleasure may happen to be!

He even told me: "My Word does NOT go out from Me, and return to Me Void!"
And, we all should know that which makes the Word of God Void. Right?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

When it says 1. fell in Adam 2. God decreed all which should come to pass.

I believe Adam didnt have a sinful nature or original sin or any of that, he has untainted nature and will. Since all God created was "good" He says. The sin nature only came AFTER the fall, otherwise God created something "ungood" and is the reason Adam sinned!

So do the people who wrote the confession believe God decreed the fall of Adam? Or does the decreeing only start AFTER the fall? Obviously these guys are long gone so we cant go inside their minds, but do we got something to give us a clue?

Remember, Adam was born sinless, untainted by sin, yet he was not infallible. When we study this, we need to realize two things, God planted the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden and allowed Satan entrance into it. If it was not part of His plan, then this happened outside of His will, and renders it useless in His plan.

The most horrific event in history was the crucifixion of His Son, and He decreed it. When Peter said this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.[Acts of the Apostles 2:23] and Paul wrote He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?[Romans 8:32] Notice that both mentioned God delivering His Son up. God was the driving force behind the very crucifixion of His own Son. Then it was in Acts of the Apostles 2:23 'foreknowledge of God'. Foreknowledge is not to be confused with omniscience, because foreknowledge in the Greek is a verb, meaning God did something. God decreed His Son's crucifixion, just like God willed the salvation of His sheep, just like He decreed Adam's fall.

Look at Jonah for instance. It was after Jonah boarded a ship and headed for Tarshish, we can read And the LORD appointed a great fish to swallow Jonah,[Jonah 1:17] and the KJV says 'prepared a great fish'. But this whale didn't pop up all at once, but was there way before this event happened. The Molinists would say that after Jonah did what he did, God then knew to send that whale. Wrong! God knew this and made sure this happened to show Jonah who was Boss and who was not.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

When it says 1. fell in Adam 2. God decreed all which should come to pass.

I believe Adam didnt have a sinful nature or original sin or any of that, he has untainted nature and will. Since all God created was "good" He says. The sin nature only came AFTER the fall, otherwise God created something "ungood" and is the reason Adam sinned!

So do the people who wrote the confession believe God decreed the fall of Adam? Or does the decreeing only start AFTER the fall? Obviously these guys are long gone so we cant go inside their minds, but do we got something to give us a clue?

Many ppl fall into some sort of deism and they don't even realize it. They say(when speaking about things like this, the fall, abortions, rapes, murders, molestations, &c) God stands back and allows these things to happen. That's deism. Deism teaches that there is a god who created all we see, started it spinning like a top, and then stood back and watched it unfold. For whatever reason, that which we can not wrap our heads around, these evils serve a purpose in God's plan.

There's a question asked..."Why do bad things happen to good ppl?" The question needs to be..."Why do good things happen to bad ppl?" There was one good Person born of a woman, and they took and beat, spit upon, ripped the beard from His face, plated thorns and smashed them down on His head, mocked Him, and crucified Him. We should expect to fare no better.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Like I just explained to Mr. Johnson? God's Irresistible Grace, can arrange a man's "life situation", into giving cause for a man to (falsely) believe, he made the "choice" of his OWN free will!

The child of God lives with a dual personality, the fleshly nature and the spiritual nature, as Paul tells us in Galatians. Our choices in life are influenced by either the flesh or the Spirit.

 

[NayborBear]

The child of God lives with a dual personality, the fleshly nature and the spiritual nature, as Paul tells us in Galatians. Our choices in life are influenced by either the flesh or the Spirit.

We have found the "enemy!"
And, it is US!

I realize it must be a "hard" thing to "process." The fact that God created EVERY soul that was ever, or shall ever be born of woman.

Also hard to process, that God pre-determines, or predestinates each and EVERY soul!

"God CAN'T be THAT big!" Sez the Arminian.

Some things are TRUE! Whether one believe's it, or not!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I would think God wills and does his good pleasure not tries. Let there be and there was.

I would think a loving God will for all. But will not force people against their will.. ie, he does not make us robots.

That particular Israel as a outward Jew according to the flesh was not made or newly created by the will of God who is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul desires. (Job 23) Or described in the same way in Philippian 2:13 it is God who works in us yoked with us to both will and perform his good pleasure

He still willed for them to come to him, so he could gather them as his children, Yet they were unwilling.

Those were jesus words, not mine.

No man could come and therefore no man has come unless the father had first enabled them..... giving them the gift of faith, previously having none..

All of Israel is not the bride of Christ which God renamed "Christians" in Acts. God is not to weak to draw us and not cast us out but finishing the work he has began in us. . I beleive if he has begun the good work of His faith as it is written in us, he will finish it . Philippians 1;6

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Your not proving your point,

Again, Jesus said THEY WERE NOT WILLING,, Yet it was HIS WILL that they were.Romans 9 is paul answering the question about Gods chosing of Israel. Was it a mistake..

 

[crossnote]

There are too many assumptions in the OP to even begin...so I won't. LOL

 

[preacher4truth]

Who preaches that God *owes* salvation to anyone?

*You*

And here's how: God has to give everyone a chance to vote for Him. So, they have to take it, or not, according to your false gospel of works. So in that sense, you make it that God owes everyone salvation and that they have to do something to get it, then you call it "a gift" when in reality it's a reward.

If God doesn't do this, then you blaspheme and reply against the God of Scripture. Therefore, you think he owes this to everyone.

 

[Iconoclast]

*You*

And here's how: God has to give everyone a chance to vote for Him. So, they have to take it, or not, according to your false gospel of works. So in that sense, you make it that God owes everyone salvation and that they have to do something to get it, then you call it "a gift" when in reality it's a reward.

If God doesn't do this, then you blaspheme and reply against the God of Scripture. Therefore, you think he owes this to everyone.

Yes...many people do not mean to do this but they do.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

and romans 4;
4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

 

[preacher4truth]

Yes...many people do not mean to do this but they do.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

and romans 4;
4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Yes, I believe they do this in ignorance of the truth as our friend here does, nehemiah6.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, I believe they do this in ignorance of the truth as our friend here does, nehemiah6.

He makes some valid points, but he goes into combat mode rather than working through the issues. He wants things to be biblical, but skips over central verses that would be of help to him.

 

[garee]

@garee
Hi, garee -

Thanks for your reply.

I'd like to point out that in the same book of Matthew and in the same chapter, 13, you'll find the following text which explains why Jesus spoke to the Jews in parables (verses 10 - 17):

And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"​

He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:​

​

'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,​

And seeing you will see and not perceive;​

For the hearts of this people have grown dull.​

Their ears are hard of hearing,​

And their eyes they have closed,​

Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,​

Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,​

So that I should heal them.'​

​

But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.​

So, we find that the Jews couldn't see, hear, or understand; and we see that Isaiah's curse was upon them.

Yes, God was not willing that they come. He concealed it from them but has given his kingdom of priests (believers) the honor to search out that understanding. He calls us kings as ambassadors for Christ we have that honor to search out the parables.

Proverbs 25:2It is the "glory of God" to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

In regard to the prophecy of Isaiah as fulfilled. If prophecy is a curse it is to unbelievers of all nations as a forward nation "no faith".

The spiritual understanding is hid from them. In that way the letter of the law does kill and the unseen spiritual understanding does heal and create anew.

 

[Nehemiah6]

*You*

And here's how: God has to give everyone a chance to vote for Him. So, they have to take it, or not, according to your false gospel of works. So in that sense, you make it that God owes everyone salvation and that they have to do something to get it, then you call it "a gift" when in reality it's a reward.

If God doesn't do this, then you blaspheme and reply against the God of Scripture. Therefore, you think he owes this to everyone.

This just more Calvinistic nonsense without any substance. How can obedience to the Gospel by a "false Gospel of works" when the Bible itself speaks of obedience (or disobedience) to the Gospel (Rom 1:16).

1. Does God command all men everywhere to repent? (Acts 17:30) Therefore if they repent they are obeying His command.

2. Does God command all men everywhere to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ? (1 Jn 3:23) Therefore if they truly believe they are obeying His command.

But you are implying that you got saved (1) without responding to the Gospel, (2) without genuine repentance and (3) without genuine saving faith. Sounds more like magic than anything else!

And it is actually Calvinists who blaspheme God by teaching that He arbitrarily predestines some/many men for Hell!

 

[Grandpa]

This just more Calvinistic nonsense without any substance. How can obedience to the Gospel by a "false Gospel of works" when the Bible itself speaks of obedience (or disobedience) to the Gospel (Rom 1:16).

1. Does God command all men everywhere to repent? (Acts 17:30) Therefore if they repent they are obeying His command.

2. Does God command all men everywhere to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ? (1 Jn 3:23) Therefore if they truly believe they are obeying His command.

But you are implying that you got saved (1) without responding to the Gospel, (2) without genuine repentance and (3) without genuine saving faith. Sounds more like magic than anything else!

And it is actually Calvinists who blaspheme God by teaching that He arbitrarily predestines some/many men for Hell!

You say "obedience" to the gospel a lot.

What do you mean by that?

I was just curious. Not trying to make fun of you or anything.

 

[Nehemiah6]

You say "obedience" to the gospel a lot.

What do you mean by that?

I was just curious. Not trying to make fun of you or anything.

Scriptural examples should suffice:

ACTS 2

THE GOSPEL IS PREACHED
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

SINNERS ARE CONVICTED AND RESPOND TO THE GOSPEL
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

SINNERS ARE COMMANDED TO OBEY THE GOSPEL
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost...
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

THE GOSPEL IS OBEYED AND SINNERS ARE CONVERTED
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

ACTS 16

THE GOSPEL IS PREACHED THROUGH PRAYERS AND PRAISES
25 And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.

GOD INTERVENES FOR PAUL AND SILAS
26 And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed.

THE FEAR OF GOD COMES UPON THE KEEPER OF THE PRISON
27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

THE JAILER IS CONVICTED
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

THE JAILER IS COMMANDED TO OBEY THE GOSPEL
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

THE GOSPEL IS OBEYED AND SINNERS ARE CONVERTED
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

As we know from other Scriptures, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ constitute obedience to the Gospel. Water baptism was also commanded by Peter in the same context, and administered by Paul and Silas.

 

[Grandpa]

Scriptural examples should suffice:

ACTS 2

THE GOSPEL IS PREACHED
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

SINNERS ARE CONVICTED AND RESPOND TO THE GOSPEL
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

SINNERS ARE COMMANDED TO OBEY THE GOSPEL
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost...
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

THE GOSPEL IS OBEYED AND SINNERS ARE CONVERTED
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

ACTS 16

THE GOSPEL IS PREACHED THROUGH PRAYERS AND PRAISES
25 And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.

GOD INTERVENES FOR PAUL AND SILAS
26 And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed.

THE FEAR OF GOD COMES UPON THE KEEPER OF THE PRISON
27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

THE JAILER IS CONVICTED
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

THE JAILER IS COMMANDED TO OBEY THE GOSPEL
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

THE GOSPEL IS OBEYED AND SINNERS ARE CONVERTED
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

As we know from other Scriptures, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ constitute obedience to the Gospel. Water baptism was also commanded by Peter in the same context, and administered by Paul and Silas.

So repenting and being baptized are obeying the gospel?

Repenting to mean be sorry for your sin and stop doing them?

 

[xjohnson]

Yes, God was not willing that they come. He concealed it from them but has given his kingdom of priests (believers) the honor to search out that understanding. He calls us kings as ambassadors for Christ we have that honor to search out the parables.

Proverbs 25:2It is the "glory of God" to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

In regard to the prophecy of Isaiah as fulfilled. If prophecy is a curse it is to unbelievers of all nations as a forward nation "no faith".

The spiritual understanding is hid from them. In that way the letter of the law does kill and the unseen spiritual understanding does heal and create anew.

@garee

Hi, garee -

In regard to the prophecy of Isaiah as fulfilled. If prophecy is a curse it is to unbelievers of all nations as a forward nation "no faith".
Okay ... so, here I'll have to disagree with you, because the text of Isaiah specifically identifies "Israel" as the object toward which the prophecy was directed. The mention of "Israel" in the Isaiah text was explicitly referenced in my OP.

 

[xjohnson]

Perhaps, in your eyes, or the "eyes of men", or supposed "men of God" are concerned.

But? There can NOT be any RECONCILIATION betweenst these 2 sides!

Where the one side wishes to go, where "free will" is not acceptable?

While the other side is where "free will" doesn't EXIST!

In your theory? NO FLESH WILL BE SAVED!

@NayborBear

Hi, NayborBear -

Perhaps, in your eyes, or the "eyes of men", or supposed "men of God" are concerned.
Nope ... the OP stands as valid strictly on the basis of no one responding to my OP with a convincing and compelling rebuttal.

But? There can NOT be any RECONCILIATION betweenst these 2 sides!
What is the basis for this claim?

Where the one side wishes to go, where "free will" is not acceptable?
I am not sure what you are asking here.

While the other side is where "free will" doesn't EXIST!
I am not convinced that two people who disagree with each other on the topic of "free will" cannot enjoy fellowship with one another in Christ.

In your theory? NO FLESH WILL BE SAVED!
I have no theory about flesh being saved.