Not By Works

They must have entered the new covenant if they partook of the Holy Spirit.

Just for the record, no one here is denying sanctification and christian growth, and how since god loved us, we should learn to emulate him, and in doing so, do the works we created us to do,

People will use the strawman we are immature, or hate obedience, or love our sin (many other accusations which are not true)

Our soul beef is against the thought that obedience is what saves us, making eternal life not a fift of God paid by the blood of christ, but a reward or wage earned by our hard work.

Where in the world did you come up with that "so people can have faith, but not have faith" lol, I know that I have a hard time expressing what I am trying to say sometimes, but if I am that bad about it then I need to not be part of the conversations.

You need to be more specific of what I said for me to understand what you mean by this.

When Jesus come in His glory and sits on His glorious throne, all nations will be gathered, and Jesus will separated them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

He will put the sheep on his right, and the goats on his left.

To those on his right he says to them "Come you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

For I was hungry and you fed me, I was thirsty, when I was naked you clothed me and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me.

And they ask him when did we do these things. And Jesus tells them that if you did these to the least of the people, you did it to me.

And then he says to the ones on the left "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels because you did not feed the hungry, clothe those who were naked, give drink to the thirsty, you didn't visit the widows and the prisoners.

Are you saying that feeding the hungry, or giving clothes to those in need, visiting the widows, orphans, prisoners is not works because we might boast about doing them, so therefore not to do them?

Ok, gotcha. This thread is about thinking that "doing works only" will save a person.

I didn't know any Christians thought that way, or I guess I don't know any who do. I thought only Jewish people who did not believe in Christ thought that.

I want to say...

I appreciate this thread so much. Not all of it, lol, but much. I have more peace when I rely on His work and not mine. I finally think I understand why this discussion IS so important. I still ponder the warning scriptures but believe they are to help us examine our hearts and for discernment in general. Clearly, I'm still sketchy on that a bit. But I tell you what, it is so freeing leaning on Him rather than on my own ability to find understanding, looking like a deer in the headlights, fearful I might not persevere. Wrong!!! Jeremiah 32:40 should sooth my soul, not paralyze it.

He keeps us... He is our shepherd...period. Eternal security does not null works, just gives the Glory to who is doing the works. Salvation and sanctification are His alone!!! The Lord of Host secures us, not of ourselves.

Penn said something in his 101...

If we believe, we will obey.. yeah truth of the simplicity of the Gospel. It isn't if we produce, we truly believe. But that because we truly believe, His nature will produce works within us.

My heart is steadfast, O God; I will sing, I will sing praises, even with my soul. Awake, harp and lyre; I will awaken the dawn! I will give thanks to You, O Lord , among the peoples, And I will sing praises to You among the nations. For Your lovingkindness is great above the heavens, And Your truth reaches to the skies. Be exalted, O God, above the heavens, And Your glory above all the earth. That Your beloved may be delivered, Save with Your right hand, and answer me!
Psalms 108:1‭-‬6 NASB

I will keep my Lord beside me, because He is at my right hand, I shall NOT be moved. Therefore, my heart is glad, my Glory (soul) rejoices, and my flesh also RESTS in hope.

I pray as I continue to understand the verses, that my heart burns as He explains the verses to me.

True faith given by His Grace produces and transforms. Not one bit of it, nothing, zip, though, is of our own doing. It is because He first loved us.

What eternally grateful said about harmony within the verses rings so true. Truly, when there is not, that only points to faulty interpretation, not contradiction within His word. I just think we need to REST in His salvation and that finding that harmony takes His Glory, not ours. Ours is to wait on His revealing, praying, trusting, and reading His word. I just feel more peace, stepping into His rest, rather than striving so much. Thank u.

I can not find peace on one hand and strive on the other. I can but that just brings inner turmoil.

God Bless you all and thank you!! To God be all the Glory.

You are ignoring Heb6:4-6 those mentioned shared in the Holy Spirit, you can only do that if you are saved.

None of you can answer the question can you

If you are justified/righteous apart from not commiting sin, how can what is written in heb6:4-6 happen?
Happy to change to that scripture for there is no doubt there as to people being saved or not is there

I want to say...

I appreciate this thread so much. Not all of it, lol, but much. I have more peace when I rely on His work and not mine. I finally think I understand why this discussion IS so important. I still ponder the warning scriptures but believe they are to help us examine our hearts and for discernment in general. Clearly, I'm still sketchy on that a bit. But I tell you what, it is so freeing leaning on Him rather than on my own ability to find understanding, looking like a deer in the headlights, fearful I might not persevere. Wrong!!! Jeremiah 32:40 should sooth my soul, not paralyze it.

He keeps us... He is our shepherd...period. Eternal security does not null works, just gives the Glory to who is doing the works. Salvation and sanctification are His alone!!! The Lord of Host secures us, not of ourselves.

Penn said something in his 101...

If we believe, we will obey.. yeah truth of the simplicity of the Gospel. It isn't if we produce, we truly believe. But that because we truly believe, His nature will produce works within us.

My heart is steadfast, O God; I will sing, I will sing praises, even with my soul. Awake, harp and lyre; I will awaken the dawn! I will give thanks to You, O Lord , among the peoples, And I will sing praises to You among the nations. For Your lovingkindness is great above the heavens, And Your truth reaches to the skies. Be exalted, O God, above the heavens, And Your glory above all the earth. That Your beloved may be delivered, Save with Your right hand, and answer me!
Psalms 108:1‭-‬6 NASB

I will keep my Lord beside me, because He is at my right hand, I shall NOT be moved. Therefore, my heart is glad, my Glory (soul) rejoices, and my flesh also RESTS in hope.

I pray as I continue to understand the verses, that my heart burns as He explains the verses to me.

True faith given by His Grace produces and transforms. Not one bit of it, nothing, zip, though, is of our own doing. It is because He first loved us.

What eternally grateful said about harmony within the verses rings so true. Truly, when there is not, that only points to faulty interpretation, not contradiction within His word. I just think we need to REST in His salvation and that finding that harmony takes His Glory, not ours. Ours is to wait on His revealing, praying, trusting, and reading His word. I just feel more peace, stepping into His rest, rather than striving so much. Thank u.

I can not find peace on one hand and strive on the other. I can but that just brings inner turmoil.

God Bless you all and thank you!! To God be all the Glory.

Your heart is rejoicing in the LORD , it is beautiful to hear...xox...

Amen sis, thank you for your humility and blessings, you have so much to offer, i think we can all learn from your humility as we strive to be more like Christ, thank you for your kind words, your words of encouragement. More importanlty, thank you for having your eyes open and willing to seek truth, even if you do not understand, you remind me so much of another dear sister we have the honor of having the pleasure of fellowshipping with.

Well I could be wrong, here we go with the silly attacks. I wonder if he even understood what I was trying to say.


I believe I used the word chasten, which means corrections, or training in righteousness. Which is different than inposing a penalty or judgment on someone who committed a crime. (the penalty or judgment of sin is death)



redemptin for sin to free a person from eternal condemnation does not remove the temporal chastening of people and the end results of personal sin. and how you can think otherwise? I just do not undertand


Hopefully you rethink what you just said, and realize there is a huge difference between justification from the penalty of sin on an eternal basis, and the temporal chastening of a child who has done wrong. Even an earthly father who adopted a kid who had no home and no hope, removing them from a place where they had no family, no hope and were basically dead, and brought them into their home and gave them hope and a family, still chastens that child when they do wrong. I mean really. come on now!!



Now your bordering on slander, I suggest you stop seeing what you want to see and see what I am actually saying.


Again, You need to stop this nonsense of slandering people If you have no desire to ask them what they believe, then stop. These accusations are in error. I do not believe these things, nor have I insinuated them. I have tried to talk to you in a peaceful annor. But making false accusations like ths will nto get you any brownie points.




Why do you destroy context? The thought here is the sins which were committed BEFORE THE CROSS. not my past sns, which were committed AFTER the cross

once again, If jesus did not pay for your future sins, Your lost without hope. because you have no means of redemption. You can NOT pay for your own sin!

You know I said enjoy our agreement while it lasts...……...lol


If Jesus only died for past sins, the believer must live their life under the law, when you think about it. Paul is adamant they do not. But there is a proviso:

If you are led by the Spirit you are not under law Gal5:18

What does that mean? Could it mean that if you are led by the Spirit you will never commit sin, for you sin in the flesh? If that were true, then everytime the believer commits a sin they are placed back under the law and do not have grace. Which in reality is righteousness of fully obeying the law.
And then Paul tells us that new converts will be seen to be sinners whilst they are seeking justification of their Christianity by faith in Christ(Gal2:16&17) So we really have to try and put it all together don't we. Just quoting an odd verse(I know you do not do that) will never do.
So how do I put all those verses together? I can only refer you to a previous post. The Christian sets out on the path, and though far from sinless they are still being led of the Holy Spirit in the truth of the Gospel message, to live an evermore holy life. So although they have sin, they are not under law but under grace, they have peace. But they can step outside of the true path they should be on, by committing adultery for example. Then the convert cannot say ''everything is fine, I am not under law but under grace, all my sins have been paid by Christ. Now they must come before God and seek forgiveness for their folly, and they will surely receive it, for they are part of God's family. Then, hopefully they get straight back on the path they should be on. The problem comes in a big way if they do not, they keep committing adultery say, their peace goes, their faith starts to suffer, and in the end, for some, the heart can be so hardened it is so difficult to find your way back.
I guess that makes me a judaizer to some lol

Our sins are forgiven at the moment of conversion when we are born again. but all of our future Sins must be repented of and forsaken

I was raised steeped in legalism. I feared God, but knew nothing of loving him, for I feared any slight deviation from perfection could send me to hell(I kid you not) When grace graciously found me, I then could love God, for the burden was rolled away. How could I not love him? I now had a free salvation, and he lived in me through His Spirit, with his Son. I was so happy. God bless, thanks for sharing

You are so kind and merciful to me.
Thank you so much, which points to Him. I am so grateful. Thanks for looking through generous eyes, truly.

God is so good!!!

Listening to Penn's video while I write this, I just heard the only thing worse than works based salvation, is someone with one foot in and one foot out. Hahaha and Eeks...:0!!! Thanks be to God though, He knows us and understands who He is dealing with and how to get us where we need to be, standing in HIS victory, by staying at HIS feet.

I am far from harmonizing the entirety of the word, but praise be to Him, I know it is Him who will reveal Himself, in due time, not because of striving, though. Brother, I am so excited, though, to getting more understanding/clarity. It is challenging not getting frustrated. There is so much to learn. However what a beautiful blessing it is that He puts a thirst and hunger for Himself in our hearts and minds.

The works based salvation is about our sufficiency, which is ludicrous because our sufficiency is only by His grace abounding, period!!!! This is all apart of the dying to self and humility, but I didn't see that. Whoa!!!

Galatians 5:1 says so much!!!

Lord, I am so sorry, it is all about You my Lord, You and Your Kingdom!!!

I am currently doing a torah study and learning the old testament, but I need to keep my eye on Yeshua/Jesus and His saving grace throughout it. Ok well enough me me me, dang that is irritating. Sorry, peeps, it gets on my nerves too. Hahaha. Dangit, did it again, meeee meee meee. Switching it up here, You all are annoying too though, sometimes, lol, and I put up with you, hahaha. Jk, hope u see the humor.

Lord, bless this site and this thread, help us all to remember it, every single thing, comes back to You and Your dominion, Your Love, Your Grace, Your victory, Your work, Your sufficiency, NOT ours.