Justification

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
G

Guojing

Banned
#121
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#121
Tim416 said:
Its quite simple really
If you asked most believers if someone had to be perfect in their flesh to be a chridstian, they would respond no, for no Christians are sinless(1John1:8)
If you ask most Christians if a person can be a Christian if they go around habitually sinning as a lifestyle they would also reply no(1John3:9)
Click to expand...
Most of us believe in judging sin on a bell curve, there are BIG sins, and small sins.

But to God, under the Law, if you break one, you are guilty of breaking them all.
 
T

Tim416

Guest
#122
#122
Guojing said:
Most of us believe in judging sin on a bell curve, there are BIG sins, and small sins.

But to God, under the Law, if you break one, you are guilty of breaking them all.
Click to expand...
That is true, however, does God view all sin the same? That depends on whether we accept the bible as one cohesive whole
 
S

Sipsey

Well-known member
#123
Sep 27, 2018
1,502
713
113
#123
Tim416 said:
That is true, however, does God view all sin the same? That depends on whether we accept the bible as one cohesive whole
Click to expand...
David understood sin and repentance very well. We can all learn from his mistakes or, more than likely, we can learn from our own. He said, “Only against you, have I sinned Lord.” That’s hard for many to see.
 
T

Tim416

Guest
#124
#124
Sipsey said:
David understood sin and repentance very well. We can all learn from his mistakes or, more than likely, we can learn from our own.
Click to expand...
A poet once said:
The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom(he was not speaking from a Christian perspective)
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#125
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
#125
Tim416 said:
According to Jesus(hope it is ok to state what he said) in the parable of the sower, people made a shallow commitment, and set out on the path. They must have been in a saved state to do so. When trials and persecutions came, they walked away from the faith. Clearly they had salvation and lost it. However, in the third example of the sower, people kept getting sidetracked by worldly things, Jesus did not say they lost their salvation, but rather they did not mature in the faith, for you mature by practicing doing right from wrong. So if Jesus was not a legalist, and understood the truth, salvation can be lost. In my view, it depends on the commitment made at conversion
Click to expand...
A shame so many get tripped up on the soil parable:

I happen to agree with your assessment of the 3rd soil, which in my mind is the least discussed, and most interesting soil.

The second soil people were NEVER saved. They were never created new. THEY HAD NO ROOT! Who is the Root? JESUS is the Root.

Matthew 13:
3 Then He spoke many things to them in parables, saying: “Behold, a sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and devoured them. 5 Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. 6 But when the sun was up they were scorched, and BECAUSE THEY HAD NO ROOT they withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them. 8 But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

These people heard the Gospel, got excited about it, probably went to Church and saw others excited, even made a confession.

But remember, WE can only see the confession, we can't see someone's heart. If they truly believe, and have been born again and filled AND sealed with the Holy Spirit.
 
T

Tim416

Guest
#126
#126
PennEd said:
A shame so many get tripped up on the soil parable:

I happen to agree with your assessment of the 3rd soil, which in my mind is the least discussed, and most interesting soil.

The second soil people were NEVER saved. They were never created new. THEY HAD NO ROOT! Who is the Root? JESUS is the Root.

Matthew 13:
3 Then He spoke many things to them in parables, saying: “Behold, a sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and devoured them. 5 Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. 6 But when the sun was up they were scorched, and BECAUSE THEY HAD NO ROOT they withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them. 8 But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

These people heard the Gospel, got excited about it, probably went to Church and saw others excited, even made a confession.

But remember, WE can only see the confession, we can't see someone's heart. If they truly believe, and have been born again and filled AND sealed with the Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...
They set out on the path to be precise. But thank you for your thoughts
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#128
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
#128
Tim416 said:
They set out on the path to be precise. But thank you for your thoughts
Click to expand...
I am being precise. Jesus doesn't say anything about them being saved and going down "the path". In His explanation He specifically says they stumbled because they had NO ROOT.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#129
#129
PennEd said:
I am being precise. Jesus doesn't say anything about them being saved and going down "the path". In His explanation He specifically says they stumbled because they had NO ROOT.
Click to expand...
How can one have ever been saved if they were not rooted into the one who gives life.
 
T

Tim416

Guest
#130
#130
PennEd said:
I am being precise. Jesus doesn't say anything about them being saved and going down "the path". In His explanation He specifically says they stumbled because they had NO ROOT.
Click to expand...
The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. Matt13:20

How long does it take to place someone in a saved state? Are they not in a saved state until after a short time? Do you not believe in justified by faith at the point of conversion? Is the trouble and persecution Jesus is referring to at the point of conversion in your view so they are not really placed in a saved state?. Are you not in a saved state until you have trouble or persecution because of the word? They last only for a short time in what, limbo? So which one of us is really being precise?
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#131
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
#131
Tim416 said:
The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. Matt13:20

How long does it take to place someone in a saved state? Are they not in a saved state until after a short time? Do you not believe in justified by faith at the point of conversion? Is the trouble and persecution Jesus is referring to at the point of conversion in your view so they are not really placed in a saved state?. Are you not in a saved state until you have trouble or persecution because of the word? They last only for a short time in what, limbo? So which one of us is really being precise?
Click to expand...
YOU keep saying they were in a saved state.
The WORD makes no such claim. In fact the Word says the opposite. THEY HAD NO ROOT.

Why are you ignoring that fact?
 
T

Tim416

Guest
#132
#132
PennEd said:
YOU keep saying they were in a saved state.
The WORD makes no such claim. In fact the Word says the opposite. THEY HAD NO ROOT.

Why are you ignoring that fact?
Click to expand...
Please answer the questions in my previous post. I will repeat them for you. Someone hears the word with joy, but since they have no root they last only for a short time. A short time in what? Are they in limbo, according to you they cannot be in a saved state so what state are they in during this short time?
Is the trouble and persecution Jesus is referring to at the point of conversion, obviously you must believe it is, for only then do they fall away
If a person receives the word with joy, why are they not immediatley placed in a saved state?
What did the person fall away from, it cannot be the Christian faith according to you for they were never in it
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#133
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
#133
Tim416 said:
Please answer the questions in my previous post. I will repeat them for you. Someone hears the word with joy, but since they have no root they last only for a short time. A short time in what? Are they in limbo, according to you they cannot be in a saved state so what state are they in during this short time?
Is the trouble and persecution Jesus is referring to at the point of conversion, obviously you must believe it is, for only then do they fall away
If a person receives the word with joy, why are they not immediatley placed in a saved state?
What did the person fall away from, it cannot be the Christian faith according to you for they were never in it
Click to expand...
The amount of time is completely irrelevant. They were NEVER born again. They were NEVER made a NEW creation, with a NEW heart. They did not have Jesus. The very fact that they withered away proves they had no Root, no Jesus.
 
T

Tim416

Guest
#134
#134
PennEd said:
The amount of time is completely irrelevant. They were NEVER born again. They were NEVER made a NEW creation, with a NEW heart. They did not have Jesus. The very fact that they withered away proves they had no Root, no Jesus.
Click to expand...
So you are unable to answer the questions obviously.
I will answer yours though. If a person makes a shallow commitment, God will still take them at their word and he will indeed place them in a saved state.
 
S

Sipsey

Well-known member
#135
Sep 27, 2018
1,502
713
113
#135
I’ve met people who “hope” Jesus is who He said He was, and I’ve met people who “know” that He is their Savior. I think God knows the difference.
 
T

Tim416

Guest
#136
#136
Why can you people not understand. There is scripture that supports osas and scripture that opposes it.
As the bible does not contradict itself, those who do not have osas are the second example of the sower, those who do are the third example. Why bury your heads in the sand with head theology that is going to contradict verses you ignored in the bible
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#137
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
#137
Tim416 said:
So you are unable to answer the questions obviously.
I will answer yours though. If a person makes a shallow commitment, God will still take them at their word and he will indeed place them in a saved state.
Click to expand...
I don't see a question I asked there but, whatever.

And yeah. I did answer your question. Because it doesn't fit youre private interpretations of Scripture you don't like my answer. But maybe if you stay on cc the Lord May reveal some discernment.

Be blessed while you're here!
 
T

Tim416

Guest
#138
#138
PennEd said:
I don't see a question I asked there but, whatever.

And yeah. I did answer your question. Because it doesn't fit youre private interpretations of Scripture you don't like my answer. But maybe if you stay on cc the Lord Mau reveal some discernment.

Be blessed while you're here!
Click to expand...
You could not answer at all. But you also be blessed. No root is a shallow commitment/conversion
 
S

safswan

Active member
#139
Jan 19, 2019
151
46
28
#139
Tim416 said:
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1John3:9

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. I john1:8

If you asked Christians if a person had to be perfect in their flesh to be a Christian, nearly all would reply no I am sure, for they know no one is perfect in their flesh and therefore they commit sin (1John1:8)
However
If you asked believers if Christians could go around wilfuilly committing sin as a lifestyle, nearly all would reply no I am sure(1John3:9)
Click to expand...
And so,even though we are not saved by works of righteousness what will iniquity as a lifestyle do to us?Hint - Matthew 7:21-24
 
S

seed_time_harvest

Senior Member
#140
Dec 9, 2011
14,142
1,806
113
#140
Tim416 said:
According to Jesus(hope it is ok to state what he said) in the parable of the sower, people made a shallow commitment, and set out on the path. They must have been in a saved state to do so. When trials and persecutions came, they walked away from the faith. Clearly they had salvation and lost it. However, in the third example of the sower, people kept getting sidetracked by worldly things, Jesus did not say they lost their salvation, but rather they did not mature in the faith, for you mature by practicing doing right from wrong. So if Jesus was not a legalist, and understood the truth, salvation can be lost. In my view, it depends on the commitment made at conversion
Click to expand...
IMO the parable of sower Is talking about stages of unbelief.
Someone getting close to believing but not there and then the cares of this world slows them down but when they finally get It then they have become a new creation and the promises of GOD are yes and amen.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.