Justification

[cv5]

Tribulation doctrine for the Jews. During the tribulation one must endure to the end through faith plus works avoiding falling from the faith and taking the mark of the beast.

HHmmmm sorry I disagree. Nothing in the context suggests anything about the latter day Tribulation. IMO the conversation was to Israelites during the preaching/teaching ministry of Christ and His Disciples.

He went on his way through towns and villages, teaching and journeying toward Jerusalem. And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow door...."

Since Christ Himself is the Door, I think these passages refer to the general call of conversion of the Jews. See the reference to the Patriarchs (representing the person who asked the question...a Jew), then the salvation of the gentiles yet future.

"In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out. And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God. And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last.”

 

[John146]

HHmmmm sorry I disagree. Nothing in the context suggests anything about the latter day Tribulation. IMO the conversation was to Israelites during the preaching/teaching ministry of Christ and His Disciples.

He went on his way through towns and villages, teaching and journeying toward Jerusalem. And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow door...."

Since Christ Himself is the Door, I think these passages refer to the general call of conversion of the Jews. See the reference to the Patriarchs (representing the person who asked the question...a Jew), then the salvation of the gentiles yet future.

"In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out. And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God. And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last.”

No Christian in the context. The body of Christ did not begin until after the cross, Jesus was preparing the Jews for tribulation and His Millennial kingdom reign.

 

[cv5]

No Christian in the context. The body of Christ did not begin until after the cross, Jesus was preparing the Jews for tribulation and His Millennial kingdom reign.

There are no Christians here (other than a vague reference to gentiles from the east and west, only mentioned in passing). Only Jews. Reread my post.

 

[calibob]

You have it backwards.....faith saves....after that LOVE is a process of growth and maturity..........

The order......FAITH leads to HOPE and HOPE leads to LOVE which is a process of growth and maturity...............

We can't separate or prioritize the two because it's his love that we have faith in. Then the Holy Spirit brings his love through us. Works without love and faith is misspent time at best. He loved us before our parents were born we develop faith in him because he loves us before his love shines through us we must fall in a holy love in him before as we ride on the potters wheel to become useful vessels.

The Lord is not a slave to time however and he can use us before he's done with us while he keeps getting us better. He is the potter, we are the clay, his hands are love and the wheel is time. The holy spirit fills us with a new love from the moment we sincerely ask him into our lives. Our works follow they do not lead the way. Grace/love, faith, works. In that order. Agape! TTFN.

 

[Lafftur]

The order......FAITH leads to HOPE and HOPE leads to LOVE which is a process of growth and maturity...............

dc, you may understand Faith, Hope and Love as being an “order” of process of growth and maturity, but I understand them differently.

Love = God, the Father
Faith = God, the Son
Hope = God, the Holy Spirit

The greatest is Love which is God, the Father.

All three are present and working together simultaneously at every true conversion of a believer and continue to work together simultaneously in the believer’s growth and maturing.

God’s ways are so high and greater than our understanding. The moment we think He is a “solid”......”poof” He turns into a “gas” then, we think He’s a “gas” and He turns into a “liquid.” Lol!

When in reality, He is and can be all three.

I’ve learned to just flow simultaneously with Him. Love is the key to being flexible and moving with Him.

Everything works by love. Without love there is nothing- not even faith or hope.

 

[dcontroversal]

dc, you may understand Faith, Hope and Love as being an “order” of process of growth and maturity, but I understand them differently.

Love = God, the Father
Faith = God, the Son
Hope = God, the Holy Spirit

The greatest is Love which is God, the Father.

All three are present and working together simultaneously at every true conversion of a believer and continue to work together simultaneously in the believer’s growth and maturing.

God’s ways are so high and greater than our understanding. The moment we think He is a “solid”......”poof” He turns into a “gas” then, we think He’s a “gas” and He turns into a “liquid.” Lol!

When in reality, He is and can be all three.

I’ve learned to just flow simultaneously with Him. Love is the key to being flexible and moving with Him.

Everything works by love. Without love there is nothing- not even faith or hope.

While I appreciate your zeal you are wrong on love.......it is a process of growth and maturity in a believer....it is not something we have naturally, it is not completely given at the moment of faith and REQUIRES a process of GROWTH and maturity to be perfect in us. NOTICE all below are written to people who are already SAVED.....

ADD to your faith CHARITY <--LOVE
LORD DIRECT your HEARTS into the LOVE of GOD
PUT ON LOVE
HIS love is PERFECTED IN US
MAKE you INCREASE and ABOUND in LOVE

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, charity

And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.

Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity

And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:

If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Perfected is a VERB...NOTE what it states concerning HIS LOVE IN US

teleioó: to bring to an end, to complete, perfect
Original Word: τελειόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: teleioó
Phonetic Spelling: (tel-i-o'-o)
Definition: to bring to an end, to complete, perfect
Usage: (a) as a course, a race, or the like: I complete, finish (b) as of time or prediction: I accomplish, (c) I make perfect; pass: I am perfected.

And I disagree with the bolded in your post.....without FAITH there cannot be HOPE and or LOVE....you still have it backwards....

 

[Lafftur]

While I appreciate your zeal you are wrong on love.......it is a process of growth and maturity in a believer....it is not something we have naturally, it is not completely given at the moment of faith and REQUIRES a process of GROWTH and maturity to be perfect in us. NOTICE all below are written to people who are already SAVED.....

ADD to your faith CHARITY <--LOVE
LORD DIRECT your HEARTS into the LOVE of GOD
PUT ON LOVE
HIS love is PERFECTED IN US
MAKE you INCREASE and ABOUND in LOVE

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, charity

And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.

Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity

And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:

If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Perfected is a VERB...NOTE what it states concerning HIS LOVE IN US

teleioó: to bring to an end, to complete, perfect
Original Word: τελειόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: teleioó
Phonetic Spelling: (tel-i-o'-o)
Definition: to bring to an end, to complete, perfect
Usage: (a) as a course, a race, or the like: I complete, finish (b) as of time or prediction: I accomplish, (c) I make perfect; pass: I am perfected.

And I disagree with the bolded in your post.....without FAITH there cannot be HOPE and or LOVE....you still have it backwards....

How does faith work by love?

 

[Tim416]

Christ is the end of the law, unto righteousness/justification for everyone who believeth Rom 10:4

But, would Christians be conscious of sin?

Through the law we become conscious of sin rom3:20

 

[Adstar]

Rather than speaking against persons who live righteously, this passage is actually a warning to those persons/preachers/pastors who preach mightily,heal the sick and prophesy in the Lord's name but the steal the church's money while committing adultery with members of the flock.

Where does it say they committed adultery or stole the church money? It says no such thing.. That's a tradition someone taught you.. It is not something you read in scriptures..

 

[safswan]

Where does it say they committed adultery or stole the church money? It says no such thing.. That's a tradition someone taught you.. It is not something you read in scriptures..

The iniquities mentioned by me, are simply examples of that which they could have committed seeing that Jesus described them as workers of the same.Read it here:

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."(Matthew 7:23)

Iniquity(anomia) - illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickednessStrong definition)

Iniquity(anomia) - contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness(Thayer definition)

According to Vine's; lit.lawlessness(a,negative,nomos, law) is used in a way which indicates the meaning as being lawlessness or wickedness.

How do you understand the word?

 

[Tim416]

The iniquities mentioned by me, are simply examples of that which they could have committed seeing that Jesus described them as workers of the same.Read it here:

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."(Matthew 7:23)

Iniquity(anomia) - illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickednessohnStrong definition)

Iniquity(anomia) - contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness(Thayer definition)

According to Vine's; lit.lawlessness(a,negative,nomos, law) is used in a way which indicates the meaning as being lawlessness or wickedness.

How do you understand the word?

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1John3:9

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. I john1:8

If you asked Christians if a person had to be perfect in their flesh to be a Christian, nearly all would reply no I am sure, for they know no one is perfect in their flesh and therefore they commit sin (1John1:8)
However
If you asked believers if Christians could go around wilfuilly committing sin as a lifestyle, nearly all would reply no I am sure(1John3:9)

 

[Nehemiah6]

If you asked believers if Christians could go around wilfuilly committing sin as a lifestyle, nearly all would reply no I am sure(1John3:9)

I'm not sure you've made yourself clear, but what the Scripture is saying is that children of God do NOT habitually sin wilfully. If they do, then they are NOT children of God.

 

[Tim416]

I'm not sure you've made yourself clear, but what the Scripture is saying is that children of God do NOT habitually sin wilfully. If they do, then they are NOT children of God.

You just explained what I meant.

 

[Tim416]

The Christian is a work in progress the whole of their life. They never will reach the stage of faultlessly obeying the letter, for the letter kills(2cor3:6) therefore, in its truest sense all will commit sin. But there is wilfull, and unwilfull sin


God accepts you when you are dead in transgression/sin, for you are saved by grace(Eph2:5)
Then the change begins.
IE
An alcoholic becomes a Christian, they have been a slave to this addiction for decades. Now they have been born again they desperately want to be free of the addiction to alcohol. But not all sin vanishes overnight. They are standing in a righteousness of faith in Christ and trusting him for the victory. During this period they are not committing what we term wilfull sin. Let us suppose one month after getting saved they are totally freed from their addiction to alcohol, through a justification and trust of faith in Christ.
Six months later, the person now freed from their addciction to alcohol gets bored one night. They go to the pub and get drunk. Two totally different things. One is wilfull sin and one is not

 

[Adstar]

The iniquities mentioned by me, are simply examples of that which they could have committed seeing that Jesus described them as workers of the same.Read it here:

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."(Matthew 7:23)

Iniquity(anomia) - illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickednessStrong definition)

Iniquity(anomia) - contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness(Thayer definition)

According to Vine's; lit.lawlessness(a,negative,nomos, law) is used in a way which indicates the meaning as being lawlessness or wickedness.

How do you understand the word?

Iniquity in context to me means anything that is against the teachings of Jesus.. To me it means they rejected the salvation that Jesus obtained for them and believed in a false way of salvation.. A way of salvation that was dependant on them doing many wonderful works.. They had a false gospel..

If they believed on Jesus and had the right Gospel they would have been forgiven sins like Adultry and Stealing and any other transgression shot of blasphemy of the Holy..

 

[safswan]

Iniquity in context to me means anything that is against the teachings of Jesus.. To me it means they rejected the salvation that Jesus obtained for them and believed in a false way of salvation.. A way of salvation that was dependant on them doing many wonderful works.. They had a false gospel..

If they believed on Jesus and had the right Gospel they would have been forgiven sins like Adultry and Stealing and any other transgression shot of blasphemy of the Holy..

Thanks for your opinion but I will stick to the defined meanings and that which scripture supports.

 

[glf1]

Justification is by faith alone or faith plus works?

Faith is that form of believing that is based upon the word of God and always produces works appropriate with repentance.

 

[Guojing]

If you asked believers if Christians could go around wilfuilly committing sin as a lifestyle, nearly all would reply no I am sure(1John3:9)

If you interpret that John passage as a believer will not willfully committing sin, which is a very popular interpretation, then you have a problem.

According to James, if you know what is good, and you don't do it, that is sin. According to Paul, whatever that is not of faith is of sin. Thus, all of us are sinning on a constant basis, its not just adultery, lying and such.

Instead, I believe John is talking about your spirit man, which cannot sin because its has been sealed with the Holy Spirit, when you are saved.

 

[Guojing]

I'm not sure you've made yourself clear, but what the Scripture is saying is that children of God do NOT habitually sin wilfully. If they do, then they are NOT children of God.

See my reply to Tim about this point of yours.

 

[Tim416]

If you interpret that John passage as a believer will not willfully committing sin, which is a very popular interpretation, then you have a problem.

According to James, if you know what is good, and you don't do it, that is sin. According to Paul, whatever that is not of faith is of sin. Thus, all of us are sinning on a constant basis, its not just adultery, lying and such.

Instead, I believe John is talking about your spirit man, which cannot sin because its has been sealed with the Holy Spirit, when you are saved.

Its quite simple really
If you asked most believers if someone had to be perfect in their flesh to be a chridstian, they would respond no, for no Christians are sinless(1John1:8)
If you ask most Christians if a person can be a Christian if they go around habitually sinning as a lifestyle they would also reply no(1John3:9)