Justification

[Guojing]

Its quite simple really
If you asked most believers if someone had to be perfect in their flesh to be a chridstian, they would respond no, for no Christians are sinless(1John1:8)
If you ask most Christians if a person can be a Christian if they go around habitually sinning as a lifestyle they would also reply no(1John3:9)

Most of us believe in judging sin on a bell curve, there are BIG sins, and small sins.

But to God, under the Law, if you break one, you are guilty of breaking them all.

 

[Tim416]

Most of us believe in judging sin on a bell curve, there are BIG sins, and small sins.

But to God, under the Law, if you break one, you are guilty of breaking them all.

That is true, however, does God view all sin the same? That depends on whether we accept the bible as one cohesive whole

 

[Sipsey]

That is true, however, does God view all sin the same? That depends on whether we accept the bible as one cohesive whole

David understood sin and repentance very well. We can all learn from his mistakes or, more than likely, we can learn from our own. He said, “Only against you, have I sinned Lord.” That’s hard for many to see.

 

[Tim416]

David understood sin and repentance very well. We can all learn from his mistakes or, more than likely, we can learn from our own.

A poet once said:
The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom(he was not speaking from a Christian perspective)

 

[PennEd]

According to Jesus(hope it is ok to state what he said) in the parable of the sower, people made a shallow commitment, and set out on the path. They must have been in a saved state to do so. When trials and persecutions came, they walked away from the faith. Clearly they had salvation and lost it. However, in the third example of the sower, people kept getting sidetracked by worldly things, Jesus did not say they lost their salvation, but rather they did not mature in the faith, for you mature by practicing doing right from wrong. So if Jesus was not a legalist, and understood the truth, salvation can be lost. In my view, it depends on the commitment made at conversion

A shame so many get tripped up on the soil parable:

I happen to agree with your assessment of the 3rd soil, which in my mind is the least discussed, and most interesting soil.

The second soil people were NEVER saved. They were never created new. THEY HAD NO ROOT! Who is the Root? JESUS is the Root.

Matthew 13:
3 Then He spoke many things to them in parables, saying: “Behold, a sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and devoured them. 5 Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. 6 But when the sun was up they were scorched, and BECAUSE THEY HAD NO ROOT they withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them. 8 But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

These people heard the Gospel, got excited about it, probably went to Church and saw others excited, even made a confession.

But remember, WE can only see the confession, we can't see someone's heart. If they truly believe, and have been born again and filled AND sealed with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Tim416]

A shame so many get tripped up on the soil parable:

I happen to agree with your assessment of the 3rd soil, which in my mind is the least discussed, and most interesting soil.

The second soil people were NEVER saved. They were never created new. THEY HAD NO ROOT! Who is the Root? JESUS is the Root.

Matthew 13:
3 Then He spoke many things to them in parables, saying: “Behold, a sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and devoured them. 5 Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. 6 But when the sun was up they were scorched, and BECAUSE THEY HAD NO ROOT they withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them. 8 But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

These people heard the Gospel, got excited about it, probably went to Church and saw others excited, even made a confession.

But remember, WE can only see the confession, we can't see someone's heart. If they truly believe, and have been born again and filled AND sealed with the Holy Spirit.

They set out on the path to be precise. But thank you for your thoughts

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Justification is by faith alone or faith plus works?

Depends,

Is justification a reward or wage earned by working

Or a gift of God which can never be earned.

 

[PennEd]

They set out on the path to be precise. But thank you for your thoughts

I am being precise. Jesus doesn't say anything about them being saved and going down "the path". In His explanation He specifically says they stumbled because they had NO ROOT.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am being precise. Jesus doesn't say anything about them being saved and going down "the path". In His explanation He specifically says they stumbled because they had NO ROOT.

How can one have ever been saved if they were not rooted into the one who gives life.

 

[Tim416]

I am being precise. Jesus doesn't say anything about them being saved and going down "the path". In His explanation He specifically says they stumbled because they had NO ROOT.

The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. Matt13:20

How long does it take to place someone in a saved state? Are they not in a saved state until after a short time? Do you not believe in justified by faith at the point of conversion? Is the trouble and persecution Jesus is referring to at the point of conversion in your view so they are not really placed in a saved state?. Are you not in a saved state until you have trouble or persecution because of the word? They last only for a short time in what, limbo? So which one of us is really being precise?

 

[PennEd]

The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. Matt13:20

How long does it take to place someone in a saved state? Are they not in a saved state until after a short time? Do you not believe in justified by faith at the point of conversion? Is the trouble and persecution Jesus is referring to at the point of conversion in your view so they are not really placed in a saved state?. Are you not in a saved state until you have trouble or persecution because of the word? They last only for a short time in what, limbo? So which one of us is really being precise?

YOU keep saying they were in a saved state.
The WORD makes no such claim. In fact the Word says the opposite. THEY HAD NO ROOT.

Why are you ignoring that fact?

 

[Tim416]

YOU keep saying they were in a saved state.
The WORD makes no such claim. In fact the Word says the opposite. THEY HAD NO ROOT.

Why are you ignoring that fact?

Please answer the questions in my previous post. I will repeat them for you. Someone hears the word with joy, but since they have no root they last only for a short time. A short time in what? Are they in limbo, according to you they cannot be in a saved state so what state are they in during this short time?
Is the trouble and persecution Jesus is referring to at the point of conversion, obviously you must believe it is, for only then do they fall away
If a person receives the word with joy, why are they not immediatley placed in a saved state?
What did the person fall away from, it cannot be the Christian faith according to you for they were never in it

 

[PennEd]

Please answer the questions in my previous post. I will repeat them for you. Someone hears the word with joy, but since they have no root they last only for a short time. A short time in what? Are they in limbo, according to you they cannot be in a saved state so what state are they in during this short time?
Is the trouble and persecution Jesus is referring to at the point of conversion, obviously you must believe it is, for only then do they fall away
If a person receives the word with joy, why are they not immediatley placed in a saved state?
What did the person fall away from, it cannot be the Christian faith according to you for they were never in it

The amount of time is completely irrelevant. They were NEVER born again. They were NEVER made a NEW creation, with a NEW heart. They did not have Jesus. The very fact that they withered away proves they had no Root, no Jesus.

 

[Tim416]

The amount of time is completely irrelevant. They were NEVER born again. They were NEVER made a NEW creation, with a NEW heart. They did not have Jesus. The very fact that they withered away proves they had no Root, no Jesus.

So you are unable to answer the questions obviously.
I will answer yours though. If a person makes a shallow commitment, God will still take them at their word and he will indeed place them in a saved state.

 

[Sipsey]

I’ve met people who “hope” Jesus is who He said He was, and I’ve met people who “know” that He is their Savior. I think God knows the difference.

 

[Tim416]

Why can you people not understand. There is scripture that supports osas and scripture that opposes it.
As the bible does not contradict itself, those who do not have osas are the second example of the sower, those who do are the third example. Why bury your heads in the sand with head theology that is going to contradict verses you ignored in the bible

 

[PennEd]

So you are unable to answer the questions obviously.
I will answer yours though. If a person makes a shallow commitment, God will still take them at their word and he will indeed place them in a saved state.

I don't see a question I asked there but, whatever.

And yeah. I did answer your question. Because it doesn't fit youre private interpretations of Scripture you don't like my answer. But maybe if you stay on cc the Lord May reveal some discernment.

Be blessed while you're here!

 

[Tim416]

I don't see a question I asked there but, whatever.

And yeah. I did answer your question. Because it doesn't fit youre private interpretations of Scripture you don't like my answer. But maybe if you stay on cc the Lord Mau reveal some discernment.

Be blessed while you're here!

You could not answer at all. But you also be blessed. No root is a shallow commitment/conversion

 

[safswan]

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1John3:9

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. I john1:8

If you asked Christians if a person had to be perfect in their flesh to be a Christian, nearly all would reply no I am sure, for they know no one is perfect in their flesh and therefore they commit sin (1John1:8)
However
If you asked believers if Christians could go around wilfuilly committing sin as a lifestyle, nearly all would reply no I am sure(1John3:9)

And so,even though we are not saved by works of righteousness what will iniquity as a lifestyle do to us?Hint - Matthew 7:21-24

 

[seed_time_harvest]

According to Jesus(hope it is ok to state what he said) in the parable of the sower, people made a shallow commitment, and set out on the path. They must have been in a saved state to do so. When trials and persecutions came, they walked away from the faith. Clearly they had salvation and lost it. However, in the third example of the sower, people kept getting sidetracked by worldly things, Jesus did not say they lost their salvation, but rather they did not mature in the faith, for you mature by practicing doing right from wrong. So if Jesus was not a legalist, and understood the truth, salvation can be lost. In my view, it depends on the commitment made at conversion

IMO the parable of sower Is talking about stages of unbelief.
Someone getting close to believing but not there and then the cares of this world slows them down but when they finally get It then they have become a new creation and the promises of GOD are yes and amen.