God's freewill vs. Mankind's election

[tribesman]

I can't see this. We have historical records of the 1st century church which is inspired by God. You might have heard of it. it is called the New Testament.

What do you know about the contemporary environment of these 1st century believers?

Paul had big fights with jews trying to judaize the Gospel. They fought licentiousness, They fought all kinds of things.. Paul spent most of his writings trying to show we are saved by faith in Christ, apart from the works of the flesh (whether these works came out of law or just good deeds) and here we are 2000 years later trying to twist this, and make paul say we can "boast" of having faith in God alone..

Now does this make sense to you?

Yes, makes sense and here we agree.

 

[PS]

I am not overruling scripture at all. I just denounce all ideas that says that unregenerate, natural man has the ability to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. Such an idea is against scripture.

How can you say that and not commit blasphemy bearing in mind the following scriptures?

And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.” (John 6:35)

“I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.” (John 6:51)

“… whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (John 3:15-16)

“He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (John 3:36)

“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24)

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” (John 5:24)

“… And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; He who does not have the Son of God does not have life.” (1 John 5:11)

“And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.” (1 John 4:14)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not at all denying that. I just don't see how everything in Rom.1 applies to all of mankind.

Thats kind of limiting things is it not? if it applies to any of mankind it destroys your point. Eph 4 has the same type of saying,,

[SUP]17 [/SUP]So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, [SUP]18 [/SUP]being darkened in their understanding, [SUP][m][/SUP]excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;

Considering the word ignorance in the greek is not the unknowing kind, but the knowing kind, They know it, but hide it in their heart.. Is he not saying do not live as you did before? and this (saying the same thing rom 1 does) is not talking about all people??

I didn't say I think it must mean "unknown". But are you saying that the unbelieving pharisees knew the truth, they just hid it in their hearts in a way it became darkened? THAT's a daring exegesis for sure! I'd say, with scripture, that they were BLINDED.

Well scripture is clear.. The knew it, But they became hardened. And this is what blinded them.. I am just staing what the passage says, not trying to add anything to it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

LOL. I am NOT by any stretch comparing scripture with the writings of the church fathers. Its just that some of the writings of the fathers at least do give insight into contemporary life if anything.

The problem is they are not inspired.. so should not be trusted.

Its very possible I've missed something but as far as I can recall I've not heard anyone having the same doctrine as you regarding the restoration of Israel. These figures you give are quiet numerous, ought to be a known doctrine much discussed on the web etc.

Well if you have grown up in your church, you would not expect to hear it would you? It is a well known doctrine. Fact is, I never heard of ammilenialism until I was already on my own.. When I started to discuss the word with catholics. that was my first introduction to it.. So I guess at one time. Like you. I would have considered ammilenialism a doctrine which was not widespread.

Yes, the Word. But it might be pride coming in thinking I don't need to mind what christians taught and believed for 2000 years. Me alone and the Bible can make it better.

lol.. You act as if my thinking is new. Get out into the world. go to other churches, you will see it is not as limited a thinking as you might think.

Agree. This is not something unique or new, that's why creeds are there: to agree on the essentials.

The problem is, As with many so called creeds.. The people in power agree as to what THEY think is essential. If they are wrong, then many people will be led astray. That is why Paul, Jesus and all people used scripture. and not creeds or writings of men, because that is ALL which can be trusted.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here you have it: we must do to be saved and that's where we differ. I'd say every and all condition (requirement, prerequisite) for our salvation was fulfilled in the work and person of Jesus Christ alone. Totally outside of us. That is how justification is in Christ alone and not in any "part" in us.

Your right, he did do everything needed to do for us to be saved.

where you err is that God just picks and choses who to save and who does not.

He tells us, Trust him and his work alone, (I am offering you a gift, take it, or reject it, the choice is yours)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No issue about this. You are constantly saying that salvation hangs upon natural man's ability to believe in Jesus. Fact.

We are saved by faith. Justified by faith.

It is not me saying it it is God.. your the one who is fighting it. You state the HS's ability to convict a natural man of his need for Christ in his natural state is powerless. Sorry, But I think God can and does do whatever he wills.. If he wills to convict every man woman anc hild of sin righteouness and judgment, and give them the ability to choose to say yes or no. That is up to God. not you or me

A command doesn't always by necessity imply ability in those who are commanded to do it. When Jesus commands you to be perfect as God is perfect, does that mean you have the ability to do so, if you just want to? See the same road as skinski and tommy4tommy? You have an issue with some of your literalist and linear Bible reading.

No.. You have a problem with interpretation. Jesus tells us to be "mature" not perfect as in sinless..don;t try to twist this into some allegorical thing to support your own belief

 

[nonicknametouse]

Do you think that maybe God chooses all of mankind, but not all of mankind chooses him. 2Peter 2:9 Why would He choose one person over another when we are all sinners. We are all His creation. We are all fearfully and wonderfully made. Psalms 139:14

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What do you know about the contemporary environment of these 1st century believers?

everything scripture tells us, Do you think God left important things out? Did the disciples who walked with Christ or even Saul himself know the contemporary environment of Abraham and the early fathers of his people? He had as much knowledge as I do. yet did they go into writings made by men outside the word of God to support their belief? or scripture alone?

 

[tribesman]

Do you think that maybe God chooses all of mankind, but not all of mankind chooses him. 2Peter 2:9 Why would He choose one person over another when we are all sinners. We are all His creation. We are all fearfully and wonderfully made. Psalms 139:14

When scripture speaks of predestination to salvation it does not imply that all of mankind is predestinated.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

When scripture speaks of predestination to salvation it does not imply that all of mankind is predestinated.

I do not think that is what she said..or was trying to say.

 

[PS]

When scripture speaks of predestination to salvation it does not imply that all of mankind is predestinated.

There is an article here on Predestination if you would like to read it tribesman.

Predestination

 

[tribesman]

How can you say that and not commit blasphemy bearing in mind the following scriptures?

And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.” (John 6:35)

“I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.” (John 6:51)

“… whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (John 3:15-16)

“He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (John 3:36)

“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24)

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” (John 5:24)

“… And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; He who does not have the Son of God does not have life.” (1 John 5:11)

“And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.” (1 John 4:14)

Blasphemy? Because I don't agree with your assumption that the scriptures above implies free will/ability in natural man to do what is asked for? It is not there, you read it into the texts. But, yes, of course, believers are to do all of the above.

I have made two thread posts about these matters which you might like to read:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...pology-view-man-christ-paul-vs-pharisees.html -<link

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...lling-mark-1-14-15-repent-believe-gospel.html <-link

And there are also other scriptures, "it is also written...", that deals with this. What did Jesus teach about what it takes to come to Him and how it happens? Does it look much like it is within the reach of possibility for each and every man if he just wills it?

Luke.18

[25] For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
[26] And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?
[27] And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

John.6

[28] Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[37] All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
[38] For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

[44] No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

[63] It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
[64] But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
[65] And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

John.10

[11] I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
[12] But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
[13] The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
[14] I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
[15] As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
[16] And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

[26] But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
[27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
[28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 

[tribesman]

Your right, he did do everything needed to do for us to be saved.

where you err is that God just picks and choses who to save and who does not.

He tells us, Trust him and his work alone, (I am offering you a gift, take it, or reject it, the choice is yours)

Jesus died for His sheep. Not any goat, dog or hog.

He fully accomplished the redemption for His people. He did not die for a single one of His sheep in vain.

[h=3]John.10[/h][11] I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
[12] But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
[13] The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
[14] I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
[15] As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
[16] And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

 

[tribesman]

There is an article here on Predestination if you would like to read it tribesman.

Predestination

Will check it out. Ty.

 

[Abiding]

You say you agree with me. You cannot agree with me if you think that the apostle's salvation was conditioned on their "acceptance" of Jesus' call to them and their efforts to maintain and ultimately attain same. And that, they, as elect, could have rejected same. We are very far from each other here. You believe it was the efforts" of the apostles that brought them home to God. While I believe it was the work of Christ alone for them, in their stead, that brought them home to God.



While I certainly believe that the things you mentioned above, accept and follow Christ including repentance, belief and confession, are "musts", just as certainly I believe these are the fruit of salvation. Not in any way, shape or form a requirement and/or condition for same.

This IS not the "Apostles doctrine" !!Nor is it Jesus doctrine.
And not from the bible.
Matt. 13:
1Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2Jesus answered,“Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”6Then he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. 7So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’8“‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. 9If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’”

 

[tribesman]

I do not think that is what she said..or was trying to say.

What do you think she said then? From what I gathered she said that all mankind was chosen, but not all men will choose God.

 

[Abiding]

Thats kind of limiting things is it not? if it applies to any of mankind it destroys your point. Eph 4 has the same type of saying,,

[SUP]17 [/SUP]So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, [SUP]18 [/SUP]being darkened in their understanding, [SUP][m][/SUP]excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;

Considering the word ignorance in the greek is not the unknowing kind, but the knowing kind, They know it, but hide it in their heart.. Is he not saying do not live as you did before? and this (saying the same thing rom 1 does) is not talking about all people??




Well scripture is clear.. The knew it, But they became hardened. And this is what blinded them.. I am just staing what the passage says, not trying to add anything to it.

The bible teaches they knew the gospel, but it wasnt mixed with their belief.
Unbelief blinded them. Not that they were blinded then had unbelief.

To teach they didnt believe because they were blinded stands in opposition
to Jesus teaching all over the gospels.

 

[tribesman]

This IS not the "Apostles doctrine" !!Nor is it Jesus doctrine.
And not from the bible.
Matt. 13:
1Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2Jesus answered,“Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”6Then he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. 7So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’8“‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. 9If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’”

*sighs*. What are you trying to say with this?

 

[GreenNnice]

*sighs*. What are you trying to say with this?

The Lord led the apostles to do many great witnesses, doing just as Christ , tribers, where you and I agree is God is sovereign , to accomplish His will in mankind furthering things for His glory, and, in so doing His purposes get accomplished too.


Take, for instance the situation with the teacher, Gamiel, who saw that Peter and John were one step away from being killed. So, what did Gamiel.say, he said, the San. council should let them go....Why was that, tribers?
God is sovereign, I think we all get that. But, why does God have mercy on John and Peter?
Because of why? Faith ! And, not just any 'faith,' but a faith SECURE in the sovereignty of God !

God brought Peter and John through that ordeal that didn't get them off scot-free (they were both flogged and let go) but their FAITH, combined with God's ability to save them, SAVED THEM.

Heart and mind, right, tribers, as, in their minds, Peter and John don't say much at this time of inquisition, but AFTER?

AFTER being before the Sanhedrin, after flogged with a cat O' nine tails, some kinda cat, eh, tribers, what THEN did Petervand John do?

They CONFESSED that the Lord God is with all 'sovereignty.'


Does this make sense? This confessionism that shows man's heart, as God KNOWS our heart, which is WHAT comes from our minds and consequntly, our mouths. And , God , of course, knows all three befotehand, but He works on the 'faith' inside us that He's given us to grow our faith in Him, so, this all said, by our doing what God leads us to do, as His Spirit in us goes with us and 'helps' us, mouth, mind, heart, (body). God, therefore increases our faith, allows our responsibilities to become more too, as Peter and John rejoiced all the more after their flogging inquisition, going into more and more towns at their freewill choice to preach the gospel of Christ.


Not only is God faithful if we confess our sins, that is, forgiving us, but IF we confess OUR FAITH that He gave us in the first place by His perfect 'measure.'

 

[tribesman]

The Lord led the apostles to do many great witnesses, doing just as Christ , tribers, where you and I agree is God is sovereign , to accomplish His will in mankind furthering things for His glory, and, in so doing His purposes get accomplished too.


Take, for instance the situation with the teacher, Gamiel, who saw that Peter and John were one step away from being killed. So, what did Gamiel.say, he said, the San. council should let them go....Why was that, tribers?
God is sovereign, I think we all get that. But, why does God have mercy on John and Peter?
Because of why? Faith ! And, not just any 'faith,' but a faith SECURE in the sovereignty of God !

God brought Peter and John through that ordeal that didn't get them off scot-free (they were both flogged and let go) but their FAITH, combined with God's ability to save them, SAVED THEM.

Heart and mind, right, tribers, as, in their minds, Peter and John don't say much at this time of inquisition, but AFTER?

AFTER being before the Sanhedrin, after flogged with a cat O' nine tails, some kinda cat, eh, tribers, what THEN did Petervand John do?

They CONFESSED that the Lord God is with all 'sovereignty.'

Does this make sense? This confessionism that shows man's heart, as God KNOWS our heart, which is WHAT comes from our minds and consequntly, our mouths. And , God , of course, knows all three befotehand, but He works on the 'faith' inside us that He's given us to grow our faith in Him, so, this all said, by our doing what God leads us to do, as His Spirit in us goes with us and 'helps' us, body, mind, heart, God, therefore increases our faith, allows our responsibilities to become more too, as Peter and John rejoiced all the more after their flogging inquisition, going into more and more towns at their freewill choice to preach the gospel of Christ.


Not only is God faithful if we confess our sins, that is, forgiving us, but IF we confess OUR FAITH that He gave us in the first place by His perfect 'measure.'

I have few if any objections to what you have posted here. It's the "free will" expression then, but the persons in question were born again at that time so they lived in Phil.2:13. However, what is most important is what motivates the Saints to walk in these mighty works and to endure. It is NOT their own doing by any stretch. Again: the fruit of salvation must not be confused with the condition of salvation. There are NO conditions or prerequisites a sinner must meet to be saved.