God's freewill vs. Mankind's election
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Twice today youve asked me to start a thread. Just from a post i made
this one is
Re: God's freewill vs. Mankind's election
what i meant was just a straight-up thread on election...leave the freewill VS debate thing out....that was the suggestion.
election - in context, showing how there's much more to it.
so far you haven't done that.
it was a sincere suggestion...to move away from the VERSUS debate. because i want to know what you see that i don't.
"decisions He made based on future events"?
yeah...i guess i'm wondering about that also.
no more cliches then.
anyways.....i don't see a thorough exegesis from you yet....though you are suggesting you can do it.
so i will wait. because if i'm wrong (and i likely am), i want to correct my course.
and i'll repent and confess it if i am.
i want to align with what the Word says.
A
Ok since i think i see emotions involved maybe that will help.
I have an honest question.
It may be a question old as the hills but ive never asked it.
In light of all we have in the bible about God doing His good pleasure and will: which im all for.
And the fact He alone elects: which again im all for.
And the fact He hardens whom he chooses and has mercy on whom He chooses: again amen to that.
Why? do some think if God wanted all men to be saved, yet left it up to them...even tho He offers
salvation and does it to all.....that that somehow makes Him a small God?
That that would bring Him down lower than a man.
Where does this logic come from....and i know its not just some that say this
this is one of the main reasons for limited atonement.
I have an honest question.
It may be a question old as the hills but ive never asked it.
In light of all we have in the bible about God doing His good pleasure and will: which im all for.
And the fact He alone elects: which again im all for.
And the fact He hardens whom he chooses and has mercy on whom He chooses: again amen to that.
Why? do some think if God wanted all men to be saved, yet left it up to them...even tho He offers
salvation and does it to all.....that that somehow makes Him a small God?
That that would bring Him down lower than a man.
Where does this logic come from....and i know its not just some that say this
this is one of the main reasons for limited atonement.
The spin in eph 2:8 is needed for limited atonement.
But the thing is the way they contextualize faith there and surely its not in the greater context for example
which has time marks which are ignored, faith isnt even used in its fuller meaning for example
i guess it would be these three things i wish were expanded on.
(though i don't care about the Limited Atonement thing much since its a misnomer anyways).
this thread doesn't have Calvin's name in it, so why is Limited Atonement the big issue?
maybe just these two:
"But the thing is the way they contextualize faith there and surely its not in the greater context for example"
"which has time marks which are ignored, faith isnt even used in its fuller meaning for example"
But the thing is the way they contextualize faith there and surely its not in the greater context for example
which has time marks which are ignored, faith isnt even used in its fuller meaning for example
i guess it would be these three things i wish were expanded on.
(though i don't care about the Limited Atonement thing much since its a misnomer anyways).
this thread doesn't have Calvin's name in it, so why is Limited Atonement the big issue?
maybe just these two:
"But the thing is the way they contextualize faith there and surely its not in the greater context for example"
"which has time marks which are ignored, faith isnt even used in its fuller meaning for example"
You do well in studying the Bible to see if what you have been taught is correct and be ready to change your views if convinced by evidence from scripture. We all should do so. However, as our teachers may be limited in their understanding of scripture we also are. Scripture makes little room for "new" interpretation, at least when it comes to the meaty and foundational issues. Thing is that those who want to have a "unique" interpretation also ends up there with problems. And they're also men. I find it plausible to study church history and see what my fathers in the faith taught of old, what their struggles were and what caused divisions and apostasies.
A fundamentalist of the "read the Bible as it is written only" or "me and the Bible alone" stock have huge problems with this as well as with any systematical approach to scripture. These fundies are still but mere men. Their arguments against "traditions" makes no sense, since they, too, create traditions by way of their attitude. Traditions that they expect their people to follow. Don't get me wrong, I love many of the Indie Fundie Baptist people and similar, its just that their take on hermeneutics is rather chaotic.
Well...there are not a few arminians who are very learned about calvinism...and some of them are also former calvinists. Not all of them says calvinism proper teaches easy believeism, they just still cling to their arminian views anyway.
I just wondered where you got your belief from...shall I take it that your position on that is what you have found through personal studies, not what you have been taught in your church?
I think one must differ personal belief from common faith. Our common faith is expressed in the confession. The confession builds upon older confessions which all are traced back to the first christian community. If you want a belief system totally free of "man's hand", then you must consequently stop trying to make sense of what you read in the Bible. However, that is not possible, since you have to do the work of interpreting scripture anyway...there's no way around it. And, lo, you're also a man.
A fundamentalist of the "read the Bible as it is written only" or "me and the Bible alone" stock have huge problems with this as well as with any systematical approach to scripture. These fundies are still but mere men. Their arguments against "traditions" makes no sense, since they, too, create traditions by way of their attitude. Traditions that they expect their people to follow. Don't get me wrong, I love many of the Indie Fundie Baptist people and similar, its just that their take on hermeneutics is rather chaotic.
Well...there are not a few arminians who are very learned about calvinism...and some of them are also former calvinists. Not all of them says calvinism proper teaches easy believeism, they just still cling to their arminian views anyway.
I just wondered where you got your belief from...shall I take it that your position on that is what you have found through personal studies, not what you have been taught in your church?
I think one must differ personal belief from common faith. Our common faith is expressed in the confession. The confession builds upon older confessions which all are traced back to the first christian community. If you want a belief system totally free of "man's hand", then you must consequently stop trying to make sense of what you read in the Bible. However, that is not possible, since you have to do the work of interpreting scripture anyway...there's no way around it. And, lo, you're also a man.
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i don't understand the question.
but this seems to be about Limited Atonement.
which is a complete misnomer.
in spite of all this:
In light of all we have in the bible about God doing His good pleasure and will: which im all for.
And the fact He alone elects: which again im all for.
And the fact He hardens whom he chooses and has mercy on whom He chooses: again amen to that.
so i'm out.
for now....til something gets posted that makes any more sense than what we already have.
i'm happy to be a Lutheran.
but this seems to be about Limited Atonement.
which is a complete misnomer.
in spite of all this:
In light of all we have in the bible about God doing His good pleasure and will: which im all for.
And the fact He alone elects: which again im all for.
And the fact He hardens whom he chooses and has mercy on whom He chooses: again amen to that.
so i'm out.
for now....til something gets posted that makes any more sense than what we already have.
i'm happy to be a Lutheran.
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A
Although ill admit i didnt write very well on that post. Ill try to say it again
because i dont understand what your questioning.
Ok Eph 2:8 (im fine with leaving calvinism/limited atonement out of it) its been explained by some
that faith is a fruit of regeneration and not a cause of it. Which i dont agree with, nor agree thats
what the verse is saying. So:
Then i gave the verses early on in the letter which showed faith preceeded regeneration.
So what was the question again?
Not at all against scripture, only against your understanding of same:
God didn't have to wait for us to "do our part" in order to justify us. He didn't have to wait for us to use some "ability" to profess faith. He did all this work while we were still dead in our sins. Regeneration equals being resurrected, that is being raised from the dead. It is all a work in Christ Jesus, for His people. Faith being the instrument - NOT condition - where this gift is received.
This is amazing grace!
God didn't have to wait for us to "do our part" in order to justify us. He didn't have to wait for us to use some "ability" to profess faith. He did all this work while we were still dead in our sins. Regeneration equals being resurrected, that is being raised from the dead. It is all a work in Christ Jesus, for His people. Faith being the instrument - NOT condition - where this gift is received.
This is amazing grace!
B
Faith --- NO
every time you flip a light switch you are using faith... don't you beleive the light will go on or off? Where did you learn that? By some means of reasoning power you have learned that the light switch operates electricity to open ans close the light circuit.
Just as hearing the gospel and believing it... operates the switch to open our circuit to God
every time you flip a light switch you are using faith... don't you beleive the light will go on or off? Where did you learn that? By some means of reasoning power you have learned that the light switch operates electricity to open ans close the light circuit.
Just as hearing the gospel and believing it... operates the switch to open our circuit to God
We are saved by grace - through faith. Even if you say faith is not a work, you still imply that it is a condition that must be fulfilled IN YOU before God is able to save you. This means you do not believe that all conditions to save you were already fulfilled in Christ Jesus. There's no other conclusion to draw from this.
I side with scripture which says that God bestows this great mercy on us while we are yet dead, we are but passive receivers of an undeserved pardon. As shown many times, we are first quickened from death unto life, then after that follows fruit such as faith and repentance et al.
You can't believe unless you're one of His sheep. You don't choose to be a sheep. You don't have that power of creation - but God has.
I side with scripture which says that God bestows this great mercy on us while we are yet dead, we are but passive receivers of an undeserved pardon. As shown many times, we are first quickened from death unto life, then after that follows fruit such as faith and repentance et al.
You can't believe unless you're one of His sheep. You don't choose to be a sheep. You don't have that power of creation - but God has.
A
zone i made several posts...i posted a bit from Hebrews 11
faith in different contexts are pretty well explained there
and thats my understanding of faith in a general sense.
Its gets deeper some in different ways in the gospels.
but all good things come from above and are gifts if
we stay very general. But in some usages it is merely
an action based on trusting Gods word.
faith in different contexts are pretty well explained there
and thats my understanding of faith in a general sense.
Its gets deeper some in different ways in the gospels.
but all good things come from above and are gifts if
we stay very general. But in some usages it is merely
an action based on trusting Gods word.
A
Whats the difference between the instrument and a condition?
And how does it compare to:
Hebrews 11:6
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
And how could this be if faith comes after regeneration? when it would not only contridict
Hebrews it wouldnt seem to even be necessary.
And how does it compare to:
Hebrews 11:6
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
And how could this be if faith comes after regeneration? when it would not only contridict
Hebrews it wouldnt seem to even be necessary.