God's freewill vs. Mankind's election
- Thread starter RickShafer
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E
1. We were justified through faith, and since it was by faith and not works. we can have peace with God because we did not earn it, it was all of him
2. We have access to God through faith. and stand in this hope.
3. God died for us when we were his enemy. He showed how much he loved us before we even gave him a second thought.
4. How much more can we ask for? since we were justified by his blood (through faith) we WILL BE saved from wrath through Christ.
5. If God saved us when we were his enemy, How hard will it be for him to let us go when we are his children (so much for OSAS being damaging doctrine or decieving)
6. Because God atoned us though his blood, we can have so much joy.
7. One sin (adam) caused death to all mankind
8. One act of righteousness (Christ) led to the ability of all to be saved.
How much more hope can we who have recieved Christ and given the power to become his sons and daughters need? it states it right here. No more live in fearfull judgment, but come to our abba father.
2. We have access to God through faith. and stand in this hope.
3. God died for us when we were his enemy. He showed how much he loved us before we even gave him a second thought.
4. How much more can we ask for? since we were justified by his blood (through faith) we WILL BE saved from wrath through Christ.
5. If God saved us when we were his enemy, How hard will it be for him to let us go when we are his children (so much for OSAS being damaging doctrine or decieving)
6. Because God atoned us though his blood, we can have so much joy.
7. One sin (adam) caused death to all mankind
8. One act of righteousness (Christ) led to the ability of all to be saved.
How much more hope can we who have recieved Christ and given the power to become his sons and daughters need? it states it right here. No more live in fearfull judgment, but come to our abba father.
E
Matthew 11:25-26
King James Version (KJV)
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
John 10:26
King James Version (KJV)
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
John 12:37-40
King James Version (KJV)
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Romans 9:13-18
King James Version (KJV)
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Romans 11:7-10
King James Version (KJV)
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear
unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Acts 4:27-28
King James Version (KJV)
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
Acts 2:23
King James Version (KJV)
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Romans 9:19-22
King James Version (KJV)
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Romans 9:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Romans 9:18
King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Daniel 4:35
King James Version (KJV)
35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Isaiah 46:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
1 Peter 1:2
King James Version (KJV)
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Ephesians 1:4
King James Version (KJV)
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Just a start on short notice.
King James Version (KJV)
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
John 10:26
King James Version (KJV)
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
John 12:37-40
King James Version (KJV)
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Romans 9:13-18
King James Version (KJV)
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Romans 11:7-10
King James Version (KJV)
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear
unto this day.9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Acts 4:27-28
King James Version (KJV)
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
Acts 2:23
King James Version (KJV)
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Romans 9:19-22
King James Version (KJV)
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Romans 9:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Romans 9:18
King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Daniel 4:35
King James Version (KJV)
35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Isaiah 46:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
1 Peter 1:2
King James Version (KJV)
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Ephesians 1:4
King James Version (KJV)
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Just a start on short notice.
Posting a bunch of verses does not prove anything, I can make almost any verse in the bible mean anything I want when taken alone.. You will need to do better than this.
E
It also destroys the idea that works of any kind can save us, And that salvation can be lost for ANY reason.
If God loved us enough to die when we were evil sinners and his enemy. He is not going to kick us out of his family, when we (as children of god) could never become that evil again, as John says, that is impossible.
If God loved us enough to die when we were evil sinners and his enemy. He is not going to kick us out of his family, when we (as children of god) could never become that evil again, as John says, that is impossible.
A
John sure does say that. Our new heart and affections kinda make it hard
to be living against our conscience. thats why i wonder about the ones
screaming against sin. Constantly and all the time.,
Galations tells us to be careful and kind when we see someone taken
in sin...there conscience is already messin with them.
to be living against our conscience. thats why i wonder about the ones
screaming against sin. Constantly and all the time.,
Galations tells us to be careful and kind when we see someone taken
in sin...there conscience is already messin with them.
E
It also shows why we should not argue doctrines of men, and just stick with the word of God.
For Calvins 5 points It destroys total depravity and limited atonement, while proving without a shadow of any doubt OSAS,
For arminians 5 points, it proves unlimited atonement and free will, while destroying the notion that salvation can be lost.
thus both doctrines of men are flawed..
For Calvins 5 points It destroys total depravity and limited atonement, while proving without a shadow of any doubt OSAS,
For arminians 5 points, it proves unlimited atonement and free will, while destroying the notion that salvation can be lost.
thus both doctrines of men are flawed..
E
That is why we are not to live by law but by grace. As paul said, When I sin and know it is wrong, I agree with the law.
If I agree with the law it is sin (WHILE I AM DOING IT) How can I repent of that sin? I can;t.. All I can do is do what Paul said. Look to the spirit and I will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. If we live our christian lives trying to follow law. we will be utter failures. Even David understood this, read his psalms..
E
disclaimer: all the mistakes i may have made today, and any improper use
of scripture i may have used i apologise for and in no way was it done by
any other power but my free will.
also if i did say anything right...than to that i give all the Glory and credit to the Lord.
of scripture i may have used i apologise for and in no way was it done by
any other power but my free will.
also if i did say anything right...than to that i give all the Glory and credit to the Lord.
If we think we have all knowledge we are in trouble. we will be learning until the day we die!
A
right...look at this: and notice the last verse....even if we did know it all which i dont...we see
through a glass darkly and on top of that forget
1 Simon Peter, a [SUP]a[/SUP]servant and an [SUP]b[/SUP]apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained [SUP]c[/SUP]like precious faith with us through the[SUP]d[/SUP]righteousness [SUP]e[/SUP]of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the [SUP]a[/SUP]knowledgeof God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us [SUP]a[/SUP]all things thatpertain unto [SUP]b[/SUP]life and [SUP]c[/SUP]godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us [SUP]d[/SUP]to glory and [SUP]e[/SUP]virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious[SUP]a[/SUP]promises: that by these ye might be [SUP]b[/SUP]partakers of the [SUP]c[/SUP]divine[SUP]d[/SUP]nature, having [SUP]e[/SUP]escaped the [SUP]f[/SUP]corruption that is in the world through [SUP]g[/SUP]lust.
5 And beside this, giving all [SUP]a[/SUP]diligence, add to your faith [SUP]b[/SUP]virtue; and to virtue [SUP]c[/SUP]knowledge;
6 And to knowledge [SUP]a[/SUP]temperance; and to temperance [SUP]b[/SUP]patience; and to patience [SUP]c[/SUP]godliness;
7 And to godliness [SUP]a[/SUP]brotherly [SUP]b[/SUP]kindness; and to brotherly kindness [SUP]c[/SUP]charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and [SUP]a[/SUP]abound, they make you that ye shall neither be [SUP]b[/SUP]barren nor [SUP]c[/SUP]unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and [SUP]a[/SUP]election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never[SUP]b[/SUP]fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the [SUP]a[/SUP]everlasting [SUP]b[/SUP]kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.
13 Yea, I think it [SUP]a[/SUP]meet, as long as I am in this [SUP]b[/SUP]tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
through a glass darkly and on top of that forget
1 Simon Peter, a [SUP]a[/SUP]servant and an [SUP]b[/SUP]apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained [SUP]c[/SUP]like precious faith with us through the[SUP]d[/SUP]righteousness [SUP]e[/SUP]of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the [SUP]a[/SUP]knowledgeof God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us [SUP]a[/SUP]all things thatpertain unto [SUP]b[/SUP]life and [SUP]c[/SUP]godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us [SUP]d[/SUP]to glory and [SUP]e[/SUP]virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious[SUP]a[/SUP]promises: that by these ye might be [SUP]b[/SUP]partakers of the [SUP]c[/SUP]divine[SUP]d[/SUP]nature, having [SUP]e[/SUP]escaped the [SUP]f[/SUP]corruption that is in the world through [SUP]g[/SUP]lust.
5 And beside this, giving all [SUP]a[/SUP]diligence, add to your faith [SUP]b[/SUP]virtue; and to virtue [SUP]c[/SUP]knowledge;
6 And to knowledge [SUP]a[/SUP]temperance; and to temperance [SUP]b[/SUP]patience; and to patience [SUP]c[/SUP]godliness;
7 And to godliness [SUP]a[/SUP]brotherly [SUP]b[/SUP]kindness; and to brotherly kindness [SUP]c[/SUP]charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and [SUP]a[/SUP]abound, they make you that ye shall neither be [SUP]b[/SUP]barren nor [SUP]c[/SUP]unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and [SUP]a[/SUP]election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never[SUP]b[/SUP]fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the [SUP]a[/SUP]everlasting [SUP]b[/SUP]kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.
13 Yea, I think it [SUP]a[/SUP]meet, as long as I am in this [SUP]b[/SUP]tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
no answer? maybe because it's an odd question?
Adam was not created sinful. he was [as far as we are told] in perfectly innocent and sinless communion with God.
then Adam fell. he trespassed.
and all men fell in Adam. whether you want to call it original sin or not, that's what the manifest result is.
unless we are pelagians or semi.
Romans 5:17
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
it clearly says by the trespass of Adam.
death reigned.
we can debate whether sin reigned as a result of the fall, but that would silly.
we already know it did.
so what are you asking about Adam?
he was not like we are - until he trespassed.
i don't understand the question about Adam.
everything started dying with HIM.
that's why we see the proto-evangelium immediately.
Romans 5:17
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
and here we see the precise answer to what we have been debating (imo, to my satisfaction, anyways):
those who receive
God's abundant provision
of grace
and of the gift
of righteousness
through the one man, Jesus Christ.
Adam was not created sinful. he was [as far as we are told] in perfectly innocent and sinless communion with God.
then Adam fell. he trespassed.
and all men fell in Adam. whether you want to call it original sin or not, that's what the manifest result is.
unless we are pelagians or semi.
Romans 5:17
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
it clearly says by the trespass of Adam.
death reigned.
we can debate whether sin reigned as a result of the fall, but that would silly.
we already know it did.
so what are you asking about Adam?
he was not like we are - until he trespassed.
i don't understand the question about Adam.
everything started dying with HIM.
that's why we see the proto-evangelium immediately.
Romans 5:17
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
and here we see the precise answer to what we have been debating (imo, to my satisfaction, anyways):
those who receive
God's abundant provision
of grace
and of the gift
of righteousness
through the one man, Jesus Christ.
well, i hope you do a thread on it mike because i really want to understand it - i want to align with God's Plan and know it.
if you know what i've been missing, please show me.
i'm sincere in that.
and i'm sorry to use these terms you don't like: but if it is the corridors of time - do you now believe that?
love Kath
if you know what i've been missing, please show me.
i'm sincere in that.
and i'm sorry to use these terms you don't like: but if it is the corridors of time - do you now believe that?
love Kath
They are scripture, pal. I just don't buy into your interpretation of same. I don't know how you can squeeze in literally the whole world in Romans 1. And btw, you're a man, interpreting scripture...and yet you say "only the Bible!"...see?).
I don't know what you're shooting at here...trying to refute limited atonement? Have nothing to do with what is discussed right now. All men are guilty of and responsible for their own sin.
I don't know what you're shooting at here...trying to refute limited atonement? Have nothing to do with what is discussed right now. All men are guilty of and responsible for their own sin.
A
Zone, although i believe salvation is of the Lord. Its because He cut us off, and
He is the only one that can redeem us and justify us and reconcile us.
NOT just because we are dead in sins. So i hear all kinds of reasons why we need
limited atonement. The biggest one is that we are totally depraved. Which to me
is neither here or there as far as being reconciled is concerned.
So.....in the whole depravity arguement which is nothing more than to justify the limited atonement
arguement. It is said (even tho noone is arguing the fact that God through the Spirit works on
men to equipt and draw) that man cannot do anything thats against his nature, for example
only sin and never do or be able to make a choice for God through the gospel. Then its said
because of this nature thing we cant get past. God has to just save us, regenerate us so we can
believe and repent and on and on.
Im not buying the nature thing. If Adam was able to be perfect and sin, fallen man should be able to choose
good with Gods help without having a perfect nature. Sorry if thats just a bunch of logical runaround, but
thats what i think of logic theology anyway.
He is the only one that can redeem us and justify us and reconcile us.
NOT just because we are dead in sins. So i hear all kinds of reasons why we need
limited atonement. The biggest one is that we are totally depraved. Which to me
is neither here or there as far as being reconciled is concerned.
So.....in the whole depravity arguement which is nothing more than to justify the limited atonement
arguement. It is said (even tho noone is arguing the fact that God through the Spirit works on
men to equipt and draw) that man cannot do anything thats against his nature, for example
only sin and never do or be able to make a choice for God through the gospel. Then its said
because of this nature thing we cant get past. God has to just save us, regenerate us so we can
believe and repent and on and on.
Im not buying the nature thing. If Adam was able to be perfect and sin, fallen man should be able to choose
good with Gods help without having a perfect nature. Sorry if thats just a bunch of logical runaround, but
thats what i think of logic theology anyway.
B
and now we are... in perfectly innocent and sinless communion with God.
I think the issue of the thread was freewill (choice power) exercised by man or by special election of God... but OP purposefully transposed the verbiage in the title. I "think" abiding was trying to demonstrate freewill (choice power) IS a truth... God doesn't just ZAP us and we believe. But you might wanna wait for him to verify that. sometimes I misunderstand what the intended point is.
I think the issue of the thread was freewill (choice power) exercised by man or by special election of God... but OP purposefully transposed the verbiage in the title. I "think" abiding was trying to demonstrate freewill (choice power) IS a truth... God doesn't just ZAP us and we believe. But you might wanna wait for him to verify that. sometimes I misunderstand what the intended point is.
A
Twice today youve asked me to start a thread. Just from a post i made
The corridors of time is just starting to be a cliche.
Im ok that you use it. but it isnt going to be understandable to many.
Tell me if im right. What you mean by it is to say that when the bible
ever mentions Gods foreknowledge...it isnt talking about decisions He made
based on future events.
The corridors of time is just starting to be a cliche.
Im ok that you use it. but it isnt going to be understandable to many.
Tell me if im right. What you mean by it is to say that when the bible
ever mentions Gods foreknowledge...it isnt talking about decisions He made
based on future events.